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Topic: "Co-Writing vs Arranging"
Session Start: Tue May 04 21:26:50 1999

[Liane] now there was a thread this week....
[Liane] Jason wrote the lyrics AND the melody to a song....
[Liane] and Michael Novak put chords to it and recorded himself singing and playing the song.. he made a nice arrangement
* AXEMAN mebers that thread
[Marty] mebers?:-)
* AXEMAN members that thread
[Liane] soooo..... is arranging part of writing the song? is the arranger the co writer of that song???
[Liane] what do you all think?
[Marty] An arrangement is different than co-writing.
[Liane] why?
[AXEMAN] writing be writing arranging arranging
[DaleB] I think you're asking the wrong question Liane.
[Lexicon-woman] because a chord progression is noncopyrightable
[DaleB] it should be...is adding chords to the melody arranging.
[Liane] you don't think it is Dale?
[Liane] what is putting chords to a song then?
[Marty] depends on how close or far to the original it is, I would say.
[AXEMAN] I put How Great Thou Art into 6/8 time thus making a new arangment (I also changed the chords some.........
[Lexicon-woman] "messing it up"?
[AXEMAN] did I write it?
[Marty] embellishment.:-)
[DaleB] well...I think that is the root of the question...the way you asked your question was biased.
[Liane] Dale.. what is putting chords to a song if not arranging?
[DaleB] to me it's finishing writing the song
[Liane] so that is the question then!
[Tammy] I think it depends on where the song is at when they give it to you. Do they have the melody written out?
[Marty] nothing more than interpretation because chord structure can be drastically altered and not change the song.
[Liane] whether or not arranging is co writing depends on whether or not putting chords to a song is co writing or arranging? (or am I confused?)
[Uhmealya] I think it is co-writing..arranging is taking a full song idea, then redoing it with changes to beat, minor melody and chords, etc....if Michael simply added all the elements to finish the song, then it is co-writing

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[AXEMAN] (DaleB): but someone else can go back and put other chords to the same melody that's why it is arranging
[DaleB] Hi Sharis
[Marty] Welcome To The Christian Songwriters Chat sharis!
[sharis] hello everyone.
[Liane] Ken that makes sense to me
[Lexicon-woman] (Marty): it might not change the song, but then again it might. all bach's "theme & variations" pieces are based on the idea that it is a significant change.
[Tammy] Hello sharis
[DaleB] to me arranging somehow alters the original
[sharis] hi
[sharis] what's the topic?

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[Liane] co writing vs arranging
[DaleB] in order to arrange a piece, the piece has to have a complete identity to begin with
[AXEMAN] a song is words and melody.
[Marty] co-writing is one thing arranging is an adaptation of a musical composition.
[Liane] Tammy: what if someone can make up a melody but can't write it down?
[AXEMAN]that is the songs complete Identity
[Marty] this is from the copyright book I'm looking at.

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[DaleB] wb sharis
[Uhmealya] I have arranged and co-written and they are completely different
[Marty] an arrangement is considered a derivative work.
[Liane] sharis topic is co writing vs arranging
[Lexicon-woman] they still made up the melody, so the melody exists even if not written. in copyright law, the melody is covered by copyright if it's in any fixed medium, such as a recording, not just written.
[sharis] I accidently disconnected somehow! What's the topic
[Liane] Uhmealya how so?
[Marty] only the copyright owner has the authority to make arrangments of a copyrighted musical composition.
[AXEMAN] If I'm walking down the street singing "Jesus Loves me" do I have to have my guitar with me to make it a song
[DaleB] lyrics and melody are ccomplete identity only if the song was never intended to have an accompaniment
[sharis] Oh I see it above. Sorry
[Uhmealya] When I arranged, I took a song already done and arranged it for an orchestra
[Uhmealya] When I co-wrote I added to an unfinished product
[Marty] Persons wanting to make an arrangement of a copyrighted musical work must obtain permission in advance from the copyright owner.
[Tammy] Liane: I think you get a co-writer - sometimes the melody they make up doesn't work in the whole "musical scheme" of things and therefore with your input you are helping them finish the song.
[Lexicon-woman] so if the song is lyrics-&-melody only, and Jason says it's finished, then chord-adding is arranging; but if Jason says it isn't finished, and asks for help chording, then it's cowriting.
[Lexicon-woman] ?
[Tammy] Me personally would do that for a friend and still not claim it mine, but thats just cuz I'm nice.
[DaleB] Jason did not consider his song complete without the help form Michael

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[Lexicon-woman] if jason sez it was incomplete, then it was a cowrite, i think.
[Liane] Jason did expect Michael to get credit as co writer for chording and arranging
[Tammy] I wonder if Jason's ears are itching.
[Liane] lol
[AXEMAN] well then if Jason wants to give co-writing credit he is free to do that
[DaleB] to me adding the chords is an art, on that you can gain skill at, but an art all the same
[DaleB] I think Jason was willing to give co-write credit, but Mike said he didn't want it.
[Liane] ok... when is a song complete but not yet arranged?
[Tammy] If I add chords to a song they are so very basic in accordance with my knowledge, but if an accomplished pianist does the whole song takes different form based on the chords put in.
[Marty] co-write is when two or more authors prepare a work with the intention that their contributions be merged into inseperable or interdependent parts of a unitary whole.
[Tammy] sounds like a definition from Websters...
[DaleB] Marty: is that legal definition or ust you?
[DaleB] or just you?
[Marty] I'm typing from my copy of the copyright law.
[DaleB] that seems like the pre-arranged agreement that was brought up on list
[Liane] Marty... according to that definition then... chording isn't co writing because you can alter the chord sequence so that the original chord sequence was independant from the melody
[Marty] correct.
[AXEMAN] to me the operative word ther is "INSEPERABLE"
[Liane] yeah to me too
[Liane] I don't think chords are inseparable.. although some do and I would like to know why they feel that way
[Marty] however read what I typed when this started.
[DaleB] well...but inseperable as an original work...later attempts could be arranging
[AXEMAN] (Liane): agreed
[Liane] what do you mean Dale?
[AXEMAN] (DaleB): but they are not inseperable
[Marty] later attempts would be in the area of arrangments of the work.
[Lexicon-woman] well, some of the notes in the chords (besides those that double the melody) are essential to what the music is up to, but some aren't.
[sharis] This is too complicated for me at so late an hour. You guys are great, but I gotta get to bed. If any of you think of it, please pray for me as I am overwhelmed with school projects and emotional upset at this time. I am praying for all of you also, even though I can't keep up with the list right now.
[Marty] bye Sharis.
[Lexicon-woman] bye sharis
[AXEMAN] night shar
[Lexicon-woman] where does sharis live?
[DaleB] bye Sharis
[AXEMAN] house
[Liane] bye sharis I understand
[Lexicon-woman] thanx ax
[sharis] Good night, I live 50 miles north of Philadelphia, PA
[sharis] farmhouse
[AXEMAN] (Lexicon-woman): you can call me ken
[Tammy] Me personally, if someone came to me with words and a melody and wanted help with the chords, I would never begin to take any credit - cuz I would "feel" like it is not my song.
[DaleB] Jason's piece was never released to the CSG public without Mike's chords...the whole piece (chords and all) becomes its original identity...someone else might want to do a new arrangment of it
[Liane] Dale: You feel that the first arrangement of chords with a melody is inseparable.. where as subsequent chord sequences are inseparable? How so?
[AXEMAN] "new arrangment of it" then it is an arrangment
[Liane] and would the new arrangement of it by another person.. would that other person become another co writer?
[Marty] no
[DaleB] to me it has to do with how is the piece presented? what is it's original form?
[DaleB] or original COMPLETE from
[Liane] Tammy: that is how Michael Novak feels.. he doesn't want any credit as co writer.. but this surprised Jason and prompted the thread on the list
[Marty] Then they need to have an agreement documented.

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[AXEMAN] it originally presented to Michael as a complete song
[Lexicon-woman] perhaps michael felt it was complete when he got it, but jason didn't?
[Tammy] I felt the same way with J's song - "Send Me Lord" - definately not mine, even though I sang and put chords down.
[Liane] Lexicon I think you are right
[DaleB] I could split hairs a little more......
[Liane] and if I put chords down (first off they'd be simple).... but I wouldn't feel i was co writer either.. even if I was the first person to put the chords on it
[Tammy] I simply felt blessed to be able to contribute positively.
[Liane] ditto
[Lexicon-woman] i'm glad our problem is that we have a cowriter-in-law who doesn't want the credit, rather than somebody who feels they ought to be considered a cowriter by the original writer but isn't!
[AXEMAN] IMHO If you are adding chords to a song for someone and you want co-writing credit... you better work it out with them before the fact

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[Lexicon-woman] amen! constructive paranoia is always smart.
[Tammy] Your back!!
[Liane] right Ken
[DaleB] there could be a difference between saying which chords belong to the melody and how the chords are actually performed
[Marty] keep in mind that arrangments normally significantly change the original music though the original music is still recognizable.
[Marty] within the new arrangment.
[Liane] Dale: there could?
[Marty] yes, there could.
[Liane] Marty: yeah the basic melody is still there
[Amelia] I see an arrangement like that new version of El Shaddi (shudder) That wasn't co-written
[DaleB] If i"m writing a new piece I could have my melody and make a lead sheet with chords
[Amelia] just arranged
[Liane] I LOVE that new arrangement of El Shaddi!!!!
[Lexicon-woman] for example, a certain Dale of our acquaintance actually performs songs a lot differently than the authors intend all the time -- he makes up his own harmony when he feels like it.
* Amelia ducks
[Marty] Laughs Out Loud
* Amelia will repent of her negative spirit
[Amelia] LOL
[DaleB] I could then make a piano arrangment or an orchestral arrangment based on the chords on the lead sheet
[Lexicon-woman] arrangEment
[AXEMAN] Lia/ but you also like that Jon guy
[Marty] and DC Talk.:-)
* AXEMAN ducks
[Liane] hehe
[Marty] and Delirious.:-)
[Lexicon-woman] Eh?
[Liane] hehehe
[Liane] lol
[AXEMAN] (Lexicon-woman): don't ask her
[Liane] I sure do
[DaleB] so in my own writing I could separate adding chords and arranging into two steps
[Liane] well I could separate lyrics and melody into two steps also.. but they are both still a part of writing the song
[Marty] but you are still the original author.
[Marty] and thus could copyright both pieces.
[Liane] I think the chords are simply a means of communication for the musician to be able to play the melody in a nice way... and arrangment is for which instruments play which parts and for harmony
[AXEMAN] Be Right Back need more food
[Liane] lol
[Tammy] I'm not sure where I heard this, but it makes a lot of since - I you have a voice and sing the melody without the music the song still exists the instruments just add (greatly at times) to it. So it just takes a melody to make a song.
[Lexicon-woman] that's true of p&w, rock, etc., but less true of the really complex art and church music.

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[AXEMAN] nuke nuke nuke
[Tammy] sense - I'm not stupid, I promise.
[Liane] Marty I meant that since I could separate the lyrics and melody into two steps.. but both were part of the writing process.. then therefore if one person wrote the lyrics and another wrote the melody.. then they are co writers
[Lexicon-woman] some art music *consists* of what ways you've manipulated the chords, so messing with the chords is not making trifling changes with accompaniment, it's drastically altering the work.
[Amelia] I agree..I mean, how many songs do you hear that all together stink, but the melody and lyrics are great? I hear it all the time...like take Death Metal....nevermind
[AXEMAN] Be Right Back ding
[Lexicon-woman] ding?
[DaleB] microwave went ding
[Lexicon-woman] oh
[Liane] lol
[AXEMAN] food.....nuke.....ding
[Lexicon-woman] Laughs Out Loud
[Liane] Lexi good point
[Tammy] oh - for a minute I thought he was nuking my comment - (whew)
[Amelia What about songs without lyrics....?
[Lexicon-woman] ./~ waitin' for the dinner bell to do the bell thing, dinner bell dinner bell ding ding ding ./~
[Liane] I don't think that I am thinking from the 'art music' perspective then and I think Dale is... and I know that Dale is probably thinking of more complex music
[DaleB] Amelia: but in your example were the chords themselves bad, or did you just not like the arrangement?
[Lexicon-woman] there are no songs without lyrics.
* AXEMAN has to go offline for bit
[Lexicon-woman] bye ken
[AXEMAN] bye
[DaleB] Bye Ken
[Tammy] asta
[Lexicon-woman] dale and I are natural nerds.
[Liane] bye Ken
[Liane] then they are called melodies?
[Liane] instead of songs?
[Amelia] Dale, no, not the chords, just the all together project...sometimes I think "That was a good song, but all that hammermed pan flue distracted me from getting something more."
[DaleB] ok....take stairway to heaven...no melody in the intro, but the chords are instantly recognizable!
[Liane] how?
[Lexicon-woman] goodness yes! a test case for the premise that chord progressions are noncopyrightable
[Amelia] I see instrumental as a song...I've always seen it that way
[Liane] how can chords be recognizable without any melody??
[DaleB] technical definition of song implies lyrics and a singer
[Amelia] Lexicon--right! that's why every 12 year old guitar player has his/her own version
[Lexicon-woman] (Amelia): technically (I said I was a nerd!) song implies singing, that is a human voice
[Tammy] Liane: I guess it would depend on the rhythm of the chords being played, then you could recognize the song.
[Amelia] Okay Okay I submit
[Amelia] :)

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[Liane] I would find it hard.. I think.. I don't know
[Liane] guess I need to hear an example
[Lexicon-woman] (Liane): the chords themselves, and the progression of them (which chords and what order and what tonal relationship they have to each other) is recognizable
[Lexicon-woman] ARE recognizable!
[Tammy] What about the song "You Are In Control" instantly you know the song by the way the chords are played.
[DaleB] sorry Tammy, don't know that one
[Tammy] oh.
[Liane>] only because you've heard it before
[Lexicon-woman] Liane, in church, when the organist plays an intro to the hymn before you sing, can you recognize the "tune" before the choir starts in on the words?
[Tammy] well, that would be the case in any situation.
[Liane] if you play me a chord progression I wouldn't know what the melody was unless I had heard the song before
[Lexicon-woman] of course not!
[DaleB] well, you don't recognize a melody without hearing it before ;-)
[Lexicon-woman] you don't recognize anything without encountering it before
[Lexicon-woman] unless we're SERIOUSLY wrong about our theological stance regarding reincarnation

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[Lexicon-woman] in which case i'll be a man next time -- there exist comfy guy dress shoes, but not comfy chick dress shoes.
[DaleB] Lyndra can attest that I can identify many songs just by hearing two notes of the guitar solo.
[Lexicon-woman] $%%#^#%$#
[Liane] that was my question.. how do you recognize a chord sequence without any melody? I would have to hear the melody in order to find out what the chord progression was... unless you meant it was playing a chord progression and just not the melody with it? Even in that case I'd have to get more ear training in order to know what progression was being played just by hearing it
* Amelia can name that tune in 3 notes, BOB
[Lexicon-woman] in order for a chord sequence to "belong" to a melody, the chord sequence has to contain all the important notes of the melody.
[Liane] oh that's the way I write actually!
[Tammy] agreed
[Liane] most of the melody notes are in teh chords that I pick.. that's how I pick them!
[Lexicon-woman] melodies just jump out at us naturally, *because* they're melodies
[Tammy] they kinda have to be
[Lexicon-woman] but bad arrangements are often bad *because* they don't do a good job of picking up the important notes in the melody
[Amelia] not if you're writing alternative music (snicker)
[Liane] trying too hard to be different?
[DaleB] the important notes, not the non-harmonic one...of course that's sort of by definition

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*** Attempting to rejoin...
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[DaleB] Megadeth mostly doesn't use "chords" with more than two tones in them
[Liane] whew! got disconnected
[Tammy] Lexi: experience any twisters?
[CATFISH] north carolina here
[DaleB] power chords

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[Lexicon-woman] (Tammy): no, too far south for the kind of humidity involved. the prickly pear is in bloom by the side of the road now.
[Lexicon-woman] where in tx are you, tammy?
[DaleB] Ya mon
[Tammy] no, I'm California
[Ameliayayaya] I'm in TX

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[Lexicon-woman] oh sorry, where are you, Yaya?
[Liane] anyone have anything more to say about tonight's topic?
[Lexicon-woman] DaleB is a music nerd!
[Amelia] Arlington
[DaleB] yep...I'm right!
[Liane] anything that I missed when I got disconected maybe?
[Tammy] Liani: Not really. got enough of this from the list as well.
[Lexicon-woman] only DaleB being a music nerd.
[Lexicon-woman] Is Arlington near Victoria? I haven't got TX geography down yet.
[DaleB] hey..I used to get paid to be a music nerd!
[Amelia] no, Dallas Fort Worth Area
[Lexicon-woman] (now he doesn't get paid)
[Lexicon-woman] oooo, you must be having a lot of fun weather!
[Amelia] weather was bad this aft, fine now
[Tammy] Who hear does any collaborating with people (or would that be co-writing)
[Tammy] (here)
[DaleB] I have
[Tammy] I'm tired - can't think.
[Amelia] me do
[Amelia] LOL
[DaleB] that's ok...I just can't type
[Liane] ok this concludes our topic for tonight.... general fellowship now begins.. of course you can talk songwriting all you want in here!
[Lexicon-woman] that's ok, i can't write music.

Session Close: Tue May 04 22:15:18 1999