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Topic: "The Different Genres of Christian Music"
Session Start: Tue May 11 21:19:47 1999

[Liane] we're just about to start the topic... what different types of christian music can you think of?
[Jason] Jazz, Rock, Country, Adult Comtemporary, Polka, Ska, Rap, Hip Hop, Southern Gospel, Black Gospel, Celtic, Congregational Worship, Hymns
[Jason] ;-)
[stillspirit] Polka
[stillspirit] trip out
[Liane] Jason are those known christian ?????
[FOCP] most alternative some contemp
[Jason] (Liane): Yes
[Liane] (Jason): I mean you've actually heard a christian polka recording???
[Jason] (Liane): Heard of
[Amelia] Yes, I have,,,ROLL OUT THE BIBLE
[Liane] wow
[SingHisName] I listen to anything I like that has a good meaning...Rich Mullins..Chris Rice....Newsboys....DC Talk
[Amelia] nevermind
[Jason] Thrash, Death Metal, ...
[Liane] just saw dc Talk on friday
[FOCP] Wow that's alot of styles Jason.
[Liane] yeah it sure is!!
[SingHisName] I have 3rd row to Supertones and Newsboys this friday!
[Amelia] Swing
[Marty] left out folk
[SingHisName] I can't wait
[Amelia] never heard of Christian Jazz
[Marty] also blues
[SingHisName] I have
[SingHisName] : )
[FOCP] Your lucky sing.
[Jason] (Marty): Jim Drew on list writes some
* stillspirit never finds any good christian country
[SingHisName] it's gonna be awesome
[SingHisName] : )
[Marty] also which categories do they fall in? CCM? P&W? both?
[Jason] (stillspirit): http://surf.to/CrystalRiver
[Liane] someone just joined the list that writes christian country
[stillspirit] thank you jason whats that
[Amelia] I'm confused
[Marty] and maybe we could try and stay on topic?:-)
[stillspirit] I write alot of christian country
[Jason] (Marty): CCM is sorta catch-all in a way.
[stillspirit] poetry and lyrics
[stillspirit] have many songs that need music
[SingHisName] i'm from memphis....too much blues/coubtry!
[Liane] ok which ones fall in the CCM category?
[Liane] anything they'd play on the radio or record on a cd??
[Amelia] It all depends on how they are used
[Marty] also forgot new age
[Amelia] A CCM song can be a P&W song
[Gracestone] Hi Liane
[Gracestone] Hi folks
[SingHisName] stillspirit... pages4u@angelfire.com send me one set of lyrics and I'll TRY o put music to them
[Liane] (amelia): now that's confusing!!
* SingHisName always confused
[Jason] (stillspirit): That address was for a Christian country artist on our list with links to other Christian country sites.
[stillspirit] ok
[Gracestone] Are we in the subject or fellowship mode at this point?
[stillspirit] thanks Jason
[Amelia] Well, Let's take Twila Paris...her songs were first CCM, now many of them are P&W (he is exlated for example)
[Jason] Subject
[stillspirit] Sing Ok
[Liane] topic at this point Jim
[SingHisName] lol
[Marty] CCM can have that flavor but P&W is a definitely different animal.:-)
[SingHisName] brb
[stillspirit] CCM and P&W what is that Im lost
[Marty] Christian Contemporary and Praise and Worship
[Amelia] I agree,,,in the same respect, some Dennis Jernigan stuff is definately CCM not P&W (some people think EVERYTHING he does is P&W)
[stillspirit] ok I see
[Liane] ok we will be discussing how different songwriting principles or 'rules' apply to different genres... so... if there is a song on the radio that is a P & W song.. which principles would apply to it? P & W or CCM? I think CCM unless it was sung in church as a congregation
[SingHisName] back
[Jason] front
[Amelia] Liane...the recording in a church? Or the song in general?
[Gracestone] Can I say that P&W seems to have taken a turn?
[Liane] ok take the band Delirious for example.... it's worship but it's CCM on the radio
[Jason] (Gracestone): You can say anything you want. :-)
[Liane] I think if a song is for the radio or for a cd it would have to follow different principles than if it was to be sung as a congregation
[FOCP] Can't it be both?
[Gracestone] I think Liane's point about delirious is where I'm headed
[SingHisName] Rich Muillins..."That where I am there you may also be"....for both CD an worship
[Liane] ok I'm going to moderate the chat for a bit and pick out a Delirious song to look at
[SingHisName] good for both
[Liane] brb while I go get the lyric sheet
[Amelia] Moderate? Okay...
[Amelia] hmmm
[Liane] ok back... going to moderate now
[Marty] less confusion in the general discussion if moderated.
[Gracestone] There is a strong worship quality but it's like they have brought it back to the living room and are asking and praising and talking to God in the intimacy of your living room.

[Liane] there are a LOT of different styles of music.. but..
[Liane] so many of them fall under the CCM category and would all have the same general principles of songwriting
[Liane] so I think we're talking about songs being either CCM or P & W (meaning sung at church) so if you have an artist who records a praise and worship song and it is played on the radio....
[Marty] depends on the end use. Congregational, personal, performance, message preaching, simple praise.
[Liane] that would fall in the CCM category
[Liane] but if it's destined for congregational use then it's p& W
[Marty] and story telling.
[Liane] ok so let's look at a praise and worship group... Delirious
[Marty] not necessarily true.
[Liane] CCM right?
[Liane] Marty?
[Marty] yes?
[Liane] the Delirious group would fall under the CCM category right?
[Marty I think they would overall.
[Liane] ok so.. here's a song.. VERY much like P & W.. in fact I would say you could do this one in church
[Liane] I haven't heard this particular one on the radio but it is on the CD and most of the songs seem like CCM to me
[Liane] it's called "Hands Of Kindness"

[Liane] vs 1
[Liane] Oh your hands of Kindness are here for me
[Liane] and I've heard they are silken and can carry me

[Liane] chorus
[Liane] how I love you
[Liane] all I am is you
[Liane] king of love I bow

[Liane] vs 2
[Liane] oh your hands of mercy were scarred for me
[Liane] and your body was broken so that I go free

[Liane] (chorus)

[Liane] vs 3
[Liane] oh your love that burns me, deeper than the sea
[Liane] and the treasure I find here, the saviours love for me

[Liane] then chorus again

[Liane] the lyrics are so intensly personal and so intimate towards the Lord
[Liane] that's why I find this to be definately p & w
[Liane] but it's on an album that is definately CCM
[Marty] hands of kindness is mentioned only once, hmmm....
[Liane] either way though
[Liane] yeah.. this is one group that seems to break a LOT of 'rules'
[Liane] like titles
[Liane] on this album there is one song called August 30th and that title is not even mentioned ONCE throughout the whole song!!!
[Liane] but back to Hands Of Kindness
[Liane] it seems simple
[Liane] the first verse ryhmes me with me
[Liane] 2nd vs rhyme is me/free and 3rd is sea/me
[Liane] VERY simple
[Marty] are these trite rhymes?:-)
[Marty] or is trite a misnomer.
[Liane] when I listen to this song it just does NOT come across as trite to me
[Liane] and I do find the lyrics themselves to be quite unique.... maybe because they are not following set rules??
[Marty] the music will have a lot to do with the songs acceptance as well.
[Liane] this song is very mellow.. very soft and very slow... JASON would LOVE it lol!!
[Marty] uplifting, meditative, down, etc.
[Liane] not much music in it
[Liane] ok so let's open it up to everyone to comment on: What makes this song work????

[sharis] Never heard it
[Liane] what would make a song like this one work?
* stillspirit watches the room
[Liane] the verses are 2 lines.. long though.. they seem like they could be 4 line verses
[Gracestone] I haven't really learned the material from the King of Fools CD yet but if this is anything at all like the cutting edge CD I would say that th delivery is a huge factor in why it works
[Liane] but the chorus is a 3 line chorus
[Amelia] A loyal following of brainwashed fans
[Jason] Laughs Out Loud
[Luke] music would work
[Liane] interesting Jim.. tell us more
[SingHisName] bye all...
[Liane] tell us more about the delivery
[Gracestone] When I heard of the group I got the impression that they were some wild group
[Liane] lol! when I heard of the group I thought of Integrity Hozanna!!!
[Liane] we were both wrong!!
[Gracestone] Then I listened and found there worship to be kinda regular as far as music
[Liane] which I liked
[Gracestone] But then what I heard was their delivery
[Liane] you mean how they sing with such meaning?
[Gracestone] The main vocalist seems to be really opening his heart to God, not just singing for us
[Liane] passionately?
[Liane] yeah!!!!
[Liane] he's not just entertaining.. he really is worshipping
[Gracestone] That's the idea
[Gracestone] Passion
[Amelia] I dunno, sometimes the most passionate singing doesnt move me
[Liane] ok lets' call that a principle for worship music then!
[Gracestone] I think I find that missing in some worship material that I hear
[Jason] Passionate, honest worship before God.
[Liane] (Amelia): true.. but I think this is still a good principle for P & W
[Amelia] ok
[Liane] yes definately HONEST!!
[FOCP] All I know is when I worked at a Christian bookstore....
[Gracestone] Also let's not mistake trying hard for passion
[FOCP] Dilerious was in the P&W section
[Liane] (Jim): I know what you mean!
[Liane] (FOCP): if you've never heard them you've got to give them a listen
[sharis] I bought two of their tapes, but did not like the style of music. ??
* stillspirit says heart when you can feel the person singing from expierience it touches me caus eits real
[Gracestone] I think passion falls under the heading of integrety as well
[FOCP] I heard of their music before
[Jason] Passion comes straight from the heart. It can't be imitated.
[Gracestone] Yes
[Liane] ok the style of their music is CCM but their delivery as Jim puts it is P & W and so is most of their lyrics
[FOCP] I always thought they were CCM.
[Gracestone] I don't find that as surprising as I might have a while back
[sharis] I liked the lyrics, and thought it was from their hearts, and I love CCM, but I just did not like their music for some reason.
[Liane] I've read concert reviews for their concerts.. and the general feedback is that it doesn't feel like a concert but has a strong worshipful atmosphere
[Jason] (JimJ): Hi!
[JimJ] High there!
[sharis] Hey Jim
[Liane] it's like they managed to marry CCM and P & W!! how do we come up with principles for that!!!
[Gracestone] I had an album that I would have called a rock album but when I handed it to a friend for his opinion he called it worship. It took me a while to think of my music on that album that way
[JimJ] Three Jims tonight. Can't get better than that!
[Marty] does that mean things look DIM?:-)

*** Jason is now known as JimJason

[sharis] Do any of you sing CCM songs AS worship songs at church?
[JimJ] LOL, JimJason!
[Gracestone] As long as it's not a jungle Jim JimJ
[Marty] yes, on occassion.
[FOCP] no
[Liane] words and delivery must be honest and passionate and sung straight to God as if no one else was around.. but the music can be CCM style music or regular P & W style
[JimJ] Gracestone -- LOL!
[JimmyB] apples/oranges
[Marty] not frivously though.
[JimJ] No real CCM at our church.
[sharis] We love to use CCM as worship, depending on the song.
[Liane] so what do you think: should a group like Delirious attempt to apply Dave's songwriting principles or P & W principles??
[JimJ] Some Gaithers occasionally, but they haven't been *CCM* for 20 years. ;-)
[Gracestone] There is a song on a Comp CD that I want to sing for church that was considered P&W but I think is more CCM yet I would love to sing it
[sharis] We love to do that Promise Keeper song: Knowing You, Jesus and stuff like that.
[JimJason] Phoenix did a Chris Rice song at its National Day of Prayer event.

*** JimJason is now known as Jason

[Liane] any takers on my question?
[sharis] We do a great variety and to me they are all P& W no matter the style!!
[Gracestone] I think at the heart of all this, even Dave's standards of writings is a truth about how we approach our life in Christ as well
[Marty] yes and no, depends on purpose and intention.
[JimJ] Liane -- I would, if I knew something about Delerious!
[Liane] well if the purpose and intention were what Delirious's is
[JimJ] Which is...?
[Gracestone] The law was never to save us but to keep us from going too far
[Liane] CCM in sound.. P & W in delivery (passionate and honest) and P & W in lyrics
[JimJ] Good point, Jim Gracestone. :-)
[Gracestone] Dave's rules are a great checkpoint even for P&W
[Liane] concerts that have a strong worship atmosphere despite the CCM sound
[Gracestone] I may not keep the rules but they remind me of where to start
[Liane] where the lead singer appears to be alone with God
[Liane] oblivious almost that people are there listening
[Gracestone] God's laws teach us His heart
[JimJ] Liane -- I get bored at concerts which are like that throughout.
[Gracestone] Dave's rules teach us that there are defining parts of how we receive things
[Liane] JimJ you haven't heard Delirious have you!
[sharis] What about Psalms 149-150-- they sound pretty wild to me and they are directing us toward praise!!
[Liane] Sharis: the CCM of their time
[Gracestone] I rarely set out to follow the writing rules but I am reminded of them often and if I break them I know why
[JimJ] Liane -- No, I was referring to your last few statements.
[JimJ] Gracestone -- Same here. I don't consciously try to follow any particular rules, but they're there, nevertheless.
[Gracestone] I again think that is like God writing His ways on our hearts
[Liane] (JimJ): "concerts that have a strong worshipful atmosphere despite a CCM sound" ?? and where the lead singer is so into worshipping the Lord that you can't help want to also??
[Tammy] Hello all.
[Liane] because he seems to be alone with God?
[Gracestone] Hi Tammy
[JimJ] Liane -- When that is what the whole concert is about, there's no variety.
[Liane] (JimJ): like I said.. you haven't heard Delirous in concert!!! lol
[JimJ] I probably go to concerts for different reasons than you do.
[JimJ] True! :-)
[Liane] I'm telling you they are different!
[JimJ] Well, you were right about Jon Gibson!
[Liane] :-)
[Jason] very different. ;-)
[stillspirit] wow jim thats a name i havent heard in a while
[Gracestone] I haven't seen them in concert either but find enough dynamics in their style to really change moods and allow that rollercoaster feel of emotions
[Liane] I wish Jon Gibson would come out with a new album
[JimJ] stillspirit -- Thanks to Liane, I just started listening to him about a year ago.
[Liane] there is definately variety with Delirious
[FOCP] I love Jon Gibson!
[Liane] me too!!!
[JimJ] He must be semi-retired or something.
[Liane] I heard he got married!
[Liane] a few years ago
[JimJ] Liane -- That explains it! :-)
[Liane] been 4 years since last album
[stillspirit] I used to listen to don't laugh but his records him a darel mansfield
[JimJ] Don't know who that is.
[Gracestone] All right . I'll be the one who asks the dumb question this time. Who's John Gibson?
[Liane] think I've heard of Darel Mansfield.. blues?
[Liane] not John.. Jon
[JimJ] Jon Gibson is a youngish Caucasian guy who sounds a LOT like Stevie Wonder.
[JimJ] His voice, that is.
[sharis] I've never heard Jon Gibson, either.
[Liane] Jon Gibson is very diverse
[JimJ] His musical style is definitely modern, though.
[Gracestone] Interesting
[Liane] don't know how to describe his music
[Liane] I think he invented a style all his own
[stillspirit] I loved him didn't know he was still singing [JimJ] Liane -- Yes, he is definitely diverse.
[Liane] can't fit it into any one category
[FOCP] He covers a lot of styles in his albums
[Gracestone] I like that
[sharis] Is it really fast and furious, or does it have a lot of melody?
[Liane] he sounds like soul.. pop... black gospel... rock... rap.. all rolled into one
[Liane] even Michael Jackson
[JimJ] sharis -- Both
[stillspirit] I saw darel at a coffee house by my house called over flowing Cup its christian he is funny and does wonders with a harmonica
[FOCP] Jon also did some P&W too!
[Liane] sharis both
[sharis] Hi puppy
[Liane] but definatley excellent at the ballads!!
[sharis] I'll have to look for his stuff.
[Liane] I love Jon's recording of 'Lord I lift you name on high'
[Liane] also love Petra's recording of that one
[FOCP] I do too
[Gracestone] Dog Gone it! (oh I should have saved that in case you left) Sorry I'm the one with the bad humour
[Liane] but didn't like Lenny Blanc's much
[JimJ] Gracestone -- Good timing! :-)
[Gracestone] Hey I did say it when he left!
[Liane] Jon's is very dancy music
[Liane] but very mellow
[JimJ] Petra -- There's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
[Liane] oh yeah some of Jon Gibson's songs are even like the beatles' a bit
[stillspirit] there was a song by white cross called simple man I loved it I didnt care for most of their music but that was good
[Liane] like I said.. hard to describe.. jazzy too
[Gracestone] I got to do a gig with John Schlitt from Petra not long ago. What a heart he has!
[Liane] but all these different styles I would say should fall under Dave B's songwriting principles
[Seventy7] hi hi hi
[Liane] praise and worship songs we sing in church however I think have their own
[JimJ] Gracestone -- Wow, how did you get into that gig?
[FOCP] I think Petra came with the Newsboys a while back.
[Seventy7] best songwriter? Steve Taylor of course
[Gracestone] Kept talking about his vision to see CCM used to truly reach the hearts of people.
[Gracestone] He's a guy who can worship too.
[Liane] he does seem sweet
[Liane] sincere
[FOCP] Mark Harris is one of my favorite song writers
[Liane] don't know him
[stillspirit] steven curtic chapman
[FOCP] 4 Him
[stillspirit] I like him
[Seventy7] gotta love "cash cow" and "bad rap. who you tryin to kid kid"
[Gracestone] Dave wouldn't care for Steve Taylor I don't think but Steve is like a mentor to me though I've never met him.
[Seventy7] why not?
[Liane] I like some steven curtis chapman but can't figure out why!!! Since I normally don't like country music.. his sounds very country to me yet I like some of his stuff so much... especially 'the walk'
[sharis] Well, I wasn't gonna come to chat, but I just read my mail and saw the great songs on there by Jason, Jeff Pierce, and Mike Novak and had to come and say I love you guys. But I have to go now. Love in Christ!!
[Seventy7] steve is the guy i really think is gifted
[Marty] I think you have to judge each song on it's own merits and what makes it work not whether it follows the rules specifically. The rules are there to guide and help.
[Seventy7] don't gestalt me please
[sharis] Bye all.
[JimJ] sharis -- Leaving so soon?
[Gracestone] Talk about breaking the rulkes and talking in odd sentences and yet I really get his ideas. Maybe that shows how weird I am.
[Jason] (sharis): bye
[JimJ] 'Bye sharis -- God bless!
[sharis] Jammy time.
[JimJ] LOL!
[Seventy7] another good one is Mike Knott
[JimJ] Gracestone -- What do you think of Larry Norman, then?
[Seventy7 or Terry scott taylor
[JimJ] Hey, DaleB!
[Marty] Lot of stuff out there and if I tried to break it down I'd never enjoy the song/music and message.
[DaleB] Hi all!
[FOCP] Who's Mike seven?
[Marty] Hi Dale
[Gracestone] I grew up with Norman's music.
[Tammy] Hi Dale.
[JimJ] Gracestone -- I love Norman's sense of humor.
[Liane] is Larry Norman the guy who sang 'why should the devil have all the good music'?
[DaleB] Welcome Lyndra!
[Lyndra] Hi all!
[JimJ] Liane -- Yes.
[Seventy7] mike knott is the lead singer of the lifesavers underground and has a solo career
[Jason] (DaleB): Hi!
[Liane] ok I've heard him then
[FOCP] oh
[Lyndra] look at all the people here!
[Seventy7] or gene ugene
[Jason] (Lyndra): Hi!
[Gracestone] I know he's out there still but I've heard he's let his music into the dance scene and all. I haven't heard any music yet so I don't know what to say about it now.
[Liane] funny name.. gene ugene
[Gracestone] I used to love his way of dealing with things.
[Lyndra] (Jason): hi! whussup?
[Seventy7] i think its spelled a bit different
[JimJ] Gracestone -- He's had a lot of health problems, that's for sure. He has a good website.
[DaleB] so what have I missed tonight?
[Seventy7] but he is the lead singer of Adam Again and worked with the lost dogs and the swirling eddies
[Jason] ./~ Look at all the lonely people / where do they all come from? ./~
[Liane] ( Dale ): a lot!!
[Gracestone] Yes, I've been there.
* DaleB was at a meeting...and is dying of allergies.
[Gracestone] An America fan
* Seventy7 is listening to Blindside
[JimJ] Gracestone -- Randy Stonehill is another one with a lot of humor.
[Marty] Look at all the lonely people/thinking that life has past them by/
[Seventy7] i guess i just like more of the artistic music
[Gracestone] Oh yeah
[Gracestone] I am a real stonehill fan
[Seventy7] father mcenzie?
[JimJ] Marty -- I have their greatest hits CD (America)
[FOCP] Toby Mckeehan is also a great songwriter.
[Jason] (Gracestone): America?! That was Beatles.
[Liane] EXCELLENT!!!
[Marty] I think I have all their albums and most of the songbooks for their stuff.:-0
[Seventy7] uhm
[DaleB] you'd think they'd have given the darn horse a name
[Lyndra] (DaleB): poor dalebert
[Liane] LOLOL!!
[JimJ] DaleB -- LOL!
[Seventy7] ack
[Lyndra] what horse?
[Liane] Rolling On The Floor Laughing DaleB
[Marty] Laughs Out Loud
[JimJ] Lyndra -- The horse with no name.
[Seventy7] steve taylor www.squinterland.com
[DaleB] America reference
[Lyndra] eek eek eek eek eek
[Gracestone] Oh, I looked too quickly and thought you wrote "This is for all the lonely people"
[JimJ] LOL!
[Marty] 4x4 on two cross sextions of 2x4s?:-)
[Liane] ( Grace ): that's what I thought to!!
[JimJ] Marty -- My 4X4 is in the driveway. :-)
[Seventy7] um the 77's?
[Seventy7] Mike roe?
[Lyndra] I have some 3x5s on my desk.
[JimJ] The boat ashore
[Seventy7] i really need to find a ocr room
[Lyndra] alleluuuuuuuuuuuuuuia!
[Liane] ocr room?? what's that?
[JimJ] Heheheheh!
[DaleB] ,/~ My goat knows the bowling score ./~
[JimJ] LOL!
[Seventy7] obscure christian rock
[JimJ] I know CCR, but not ocr.
[Liane] what's obscure christian rock??
[Seventy7] aka stuff like pink floyd only christian ... rock operas and stuff
[Liane] what's CCR??
[DaleB] CCR is cool
[Lyndra] deliriou5!
[Seventy7] OCR
[JimJ] Seventy7 -- Know any good Christian prog rock?
[DaleB] Optical character recognition?
[Seventy7] any non mainstream rock?
[Liane] (Lyndra): Delirious was our feature example for discussion tonight
[Seventy7] like 90 pound wuss?
[Lyndra] this was your idea, wasn't it?
[DaleB] Liane: uh oh! ;-)
[Liane] lol
[DaleB] Welcome Alex!
[JimJ] Seventy7 -- I dunno, I'm asking. I like prog, even write a little.
[Seventy7] o ok
[Seventy7] those guys are a punk band
[Gracestone] Well folks, I'm feeling a little obscure and my eyes are starting to blurr and I thing I know the cure so I must get out of hure, I mean here. Love yas
[Liane] lol
[JimJ] 'Bye Jim -- God bless!
[Lyndra] night gracestone
[DaleB] Bye Jim
[Liane] Bye for now Jim ! God bless!
[Jason] (Gracestone): buh-bye
[FOCP] Bye
[JimJ> It's like the Waltons!
[Liane> Laughs Out Loud
Session Close: Tue May 11 22:23 1999