Topic:The 12 Parts to a Song -- by George Martinez
Session Start: Tue Mar 07 21:18:42 2000
<George> The first part is the Theme
<George> It is what the song is about
<George> With out it, you might as well not write a song.
<George> It is a brief description of what the song will be about.
<George> Any questions?
<Liane> you mean the first verse contains the description?
<Dave> you talking subject theme or musical phrase?
<DaleB> I think we're talking text here
<George> No The theme is not a musical phrase.
<Dave> gotcha
<Liane> is it part of the song or separate from the song?
<George> It is a major part of the song but not a phrase.
<DaleB> and not as a a part of the song....in preparation
<George> Let me explain a few things.
<JakeTheSpud> so you're saying "overview of the entire song as a whole"
is our theme?
<DaleB> we're having a topic discussion..you're welcome to stay
<Liane> ok moderate again please
<Dave> more like subject? The "awsome creation of God" for example
<George> Yes>
<George> The Theme is a one sentence description on the song.
<DaleB> I think we've got that part now....what's next?
<George> Title
<George> Got that?
<DaleB> any guidelines on how the title should relate to the song as
a whole?
<George> Now the physical parts of the song.
<George> Yes
<George> The title is an intellectual and emotional description of
the song.
<George> For instance>
<George> Awesome God>
<DaleB> ok..we may need some discussion on that
<DaleB> anyone?
<Dave> seems like titles are often the hook line
<Dave> you have any comment on that?
<George> Usually
<George> The title must be remembered therefore...
<Liane> I always try to title my songs according to what the song is
about
<George> It must be in the hook.
<George> Good.
<George> The title is more than just a name.
<JakeTheSpud> I find that "wannabe-hip" songwriters title their songs
on a "feeling" or perception of what their song is about, rather than using
any words in the song itself. Is this wrong?
<George> No. but
<George> You want it to be remembered.
<JakeTheSpud> Kind of like jars of clay's "Liquid"
<George> That's an example
<Liane> I myself like to use actual words that are in the song
<George> That's the best way to use a title.
<lilangel> love, liberty and disco...but I think that is the name of
a CD
<George> It must be memorable that's why I say it must be intelectual
and emotional.
<JakeTheSpud> (lilangel): and the song
<lilangel> never really heard it
<lilangel> just remember it
<Dave> I'm ready to move on
<George> The Intro.
<George> The intro is not usually used in the song but it must be
mentioned.
<George> It is a short opening that gets the song started.
<George> Example
<George> Since I met you by DC Talk
<George> Anyone know it?
<Liane> yes
<DaleB> the rest of everyone can't answer right now
<George> OK
<George> The intro sounds very unique to the rest of the song.
<George> It is usually used only once
<Liane> is it necessarily non lyrical?
<George> But can be used again
<George> Yes it normally is.
<DaleB> so we are talking a musical introduction
<George> musical and lyrical
<George> Such as DC Talks Since I met you.
<DaleB> why do you think it needs to be completely unique?
<Liane> lyrical could be like when a song starts out with talking for
example?
<DaleB> still there George?
<George> Yes. The intro is a lyrical / musical
<George> part of the song that introduces it.
<George> It is not a part of the first verse.
<George> If it were, then it would not be a real intro.
<George> The next part of the song is the Hook
<George> This is #4.
<George> We all know what the Hook is.
<Liane> usually the chorus
<George> Yes.
<DaleB> ok #5?
<George> More accurately it is "in" the chorus.
<Liane> the line that is repeated
<George> yes usually.
<George> #5: Verse.
<George> No questions on that. I would imagine.
<Liane> unless you were DaveB
<George> #6. Refrain.
<George> lol
<DaleB> let's go ahead and get all of the parts listed and then have
discussion
<Liane> sorry couldn't help myself.. he likes 4 line verses with a
good rhyming structure
<George> Can you explain that.
<Liane> it was about a year or more ago... Dave Byers did a study on
verses and found that the most successful ones seemed to be 4 lined verses
<George> 7 climb
<George> 8 Pre-chorus
<Liane> what's a climb?
<George> In a moment.
<George> 9 Chorus
<George> 10 Instrumental break
<George> 11 Bridge
<George> 12 Tag
<George> 13...
<Liane> 13?
<George> My invention>
<Liane> lol
<George> I call it the Sail.
<George> Let me explaine that.
<Liane> ok let Dale know when you want him to unmoderate to open up
discussion to everyone
<George> The sail is the last part of the song that leads the song
into a chorus celebration.
<George> Now is OK.
<George> Liane
<George> The climb is...
<George> Do you know the song "Fore Ever Greatful"?
<DaleB> I think we will go down the list and get some individual questions
in a minute...so be thinking what you want to ask
<Liane> I think so... p & w?
<George> Yes
<Liane> that you came to seek and save the lost?
<George> The climb is the line "I hear your voice calling me"
<Liane> oooh !
<Liane> I get it!
<George> It literally climbs
<Liane> yeah it sure does
<Liane> there are so many parts that I haven't even given any thought
to when writing a song!
<DaleB> ok..how is the climb different from a pre-chorus?
<MMissary2in1> back from practice.:-)
<George> A pre-chorus does not climb
<Liane> climb aboard :)
<Liane> the melody climbs
<Liane> the pre chorus I would guess... would lyrically set up the
chorus?
[George had server trouble so we chatted while we waited for him.. this is just a snip of that]
<JakeTheSpud> So, as a review, then, what were the first of the 12
parts? I had to check my phone line after Intro, and came back at "Climb"
<DaleB> 1. Theme
<DaleB> 2. Title
<DaleB> 3. Intro
<DaleB> 4. Hook
<DaleB> 5. Verse
<DaleB> 6. Refrain
<DaleB> 7. Climb
<DaleB> 8. Pre chorus
<DaleB> 9. chorus
<DaleB> 10. Instrumental break
<DaleB> 11. Bridge
<DaleB> 12. Tag
<DaleB> I just finished putting that all together ;-)
<Sno--man> and then sail!
<JakeTheSpud> (DaleB): I was going to say, "you're it!"
<lilangel> youi know if I wrote a song with all that in it, I would
have a 14 minute song!
<lilangel> lol
<JakeTheSpud> (lilangel): silly wabbit, they're not ALL separate parts
of the song! a lot of it is context
<CephasYesOn22> nah, i think it could be kept at 5 - 8 minutes
[George comes back as 'songwriting']
<songwriting> Took the long way around. Sorry folks.
<DaleB> (songwriting): George?
<songwriting> Yes
<DaleB> you're still on through Ircle
<songwriting> No
<songwriting> It was all I could do.
<songwriting> Sounds like a song
<DaleB> that was a statement, not a question ;-)
<songwriting> Sorry
<songwriting> Can I answer questions
* lilangel raises her hand
<lilangel> lol'
<Liane> ok let's moderate and let George explain numbers 9 through
12.. and then we will take questions.... and then we will unmoderate.. got
that Dale?
<songwriting> 9 Chorus
<songwriting> 10 Insturmental Break
<songwriting> 11 Bridge
<songwriting> 12 Tag
<songwriting> 13 Sail
<songwriting> 13 is my own invention
<songwriting> I call it the sail because...
<songwriting> As the song closes is seems to be sailing
<songwriting> The sail is a celebration mode of the Chorus
<songwriting> Most song have one.
<songwriting> I just coined the phrase Sail.
<Liane> when the chorus sounds more celebrated?
<songwriting> Yes
<songwriting> Your catching on
<Liane> ok I get it
<Liane> :)
<songwriting> It reminds us to dress up the song
<DaleB> anything specific to say about the bridge?
<songwriting> A few things.
<songwriting> The bridge is not a type of Chorus
<songwriting> It is a unique part of the song
<songwriting> I don't like using terms interchangably
<songwriting> The chorus is usually between the second and third verse
<songwriting> and after the chorus
<songwriting> It brings up a different topic or..
<songwriting> idea
<songwriting> But it keeps it theme of the song steady.
<songwriting> It has a different music fingerprint
<songwriting> it does not sound exactly like the chorus or a verse
<Liane> can a bridge contain a hook as a chorus does?
<songwriting> but of course they must all match to a certain degree
<DaleB> I think Tony wants to ask a question...
<songwriting> Yes it must have a hook
<songwriting> Let me explain the hook
<JakeTheSpud> Thanks. George, how about "Prosody"
<JakeTheSpud> would that be considered a part of a song?
<songwriting> What?
<Liane> isnt' that when the melody and the lyrics match perfectly for
each other?
<JakeTheSpud> the invisible melding of the lyric and melody, that the
music truly defines the written text
<JakeTheSpud> (Liane): yeah
<songwriting> It can get complicated.
<songwriting> Let me explain this
<songwriting> The hook is not only one thing.
<songwriting> every part of the song must have one
<songwriting> The verse, chorus, bridge etc
<songwriting> There is a big hook
<songwriting> and lots of little hooks
<Liane> that support the one big hook?
<songwriting> Each part of the song must develop one
<songwriting> Yes
<Liane> I've never heard of this!
<songwriting> The hook is something you like right?
<Liane> it makes me think you could call it the skeleton of the song
<Liane> I've only heard of the one big hook
<songwriting> That's ok
<Liane> oh yeah! lol
<songwriting> But as you develop the rest of the song
<Liane> go ahead
<songwriting> you must make every part likable
<songwriting> So
<songwriting> The big hook is what is in the chorus
<songwriting> But the other little hooks give the song flavor
<songwriting> or a different like able quality
<songwriting> DC Talk does this very well
<Liane> would you agree with calling it the skeleton of the song?
<Liane> all the hooks together I mean
<songwriting> I need to think about that
<songwriting> I see what your saying
<songwriting> Yes
<Liane> build the smaller hooks from the bigger one.. and then build
the other song parts from the smaller hooks?
<songwriting> You are awesome
<songwriting> Do you get the picture?
<Liane> yep.. thanks that helps
<Liane> how about the instrumental break?
<songwriting> Another big hook.
<songwriting> It is usually a musical copy of the Chorus
<Liane> but does it have to be a copy of the chorus?
<songwriting> Only if...
<songwriting> you want it to work.
<Liane> ok example...
<DaleB> ha ha
<Liane> I wrote a song...
<songwriting> The song must stick together
<Liane> with an instrumental break.. but I realized that....
<Liane> it made an excellent harmony.... so...
<Liane> I carried it throughout the remainder of the song... playing
along with the chorus.. but different than the chorus
<Liane> I think it's online actually
<songwriting> Good. It works.
<Liane> ok now explain tags
<songwriting> Consider the theme in every process of the song.
<songwriting> The Tag is simply repeating the last line of the song
to it's close.
<songwriting> Usually the Title
<Liane> what some people call the 'outro'
<songwriting> lol
<Liane> :)
<songwriting> I can e-mail some of this.
<songwriting> I am covering this topic in the Journal.
<DaleB> ok...let's take some questions
<DaleB> first goes to Dave Fowler
<Dave> OK Give me an example of the pre-chorus?
<George> Speechless
<George> SSC
<George> Steven Curtis Chapman
<Dave> SCC?
<Dave> ok
<George> Wrong song.
<George> DC Talk
<Liane> definately DC Talk!
<George> I'm Into Jesus
<Liane> that's where I first seen pre choruses!
-CephasYesOn22- well want do you know i'm speechless
<MMissary2in1> I have a question.
<Liane> go ahead Marty
<MMissary2in1> you talk about the hook and then refer to, shall we
say mini hooks, within the verse.
<MMissary2in1> could you expand on that thought?
<songwriting> I would love to.
<Liane> :)
<songwriting> Use interesting words.
<songwriting> Make it fresh.
<songwriting> Every solid Nashville songwiter will tell you...
<Liane> if you are stuck on cliche's.. come play some writing games
<songwriting> Make it sound fresh..
<MMissary2in1> but is it a restatement of the main hook or using
description to buld on the hook?
<Liane> they perk up your imagination
<songwriting> Go back to the Theme.
<Liane> or a different angle?
<songwriting> The song is a continuation of a single story.
<Liane> theme means the topic of the song right?
<songwriting> Yes. But you must make it sound different.
<songwriting> Than the others.
<Liane> ok
<MMissary2in1> :-)
<Liane> super songs stay in the story
<songwriting> The hook is not "in" changing the story.
<songwriting> It is in making someone like it alot.
<songwriting> Michelle Tumes is an awesome lyricist.
<songwriting> She writes very deep yet simple.
<Liane> yes we have her Listen album
<songwriting> You can get a good idea of what I mean from that.
<DaleB> ok..my question was about the Intro
<DaleB> you said that you wanted it to be unique....I often just end
up using part of the song
<songwriting> That can work.
<DaleB> part of the verse OR chorus that just seems to fit
<songwriting> Then it is not an Intro, (Technically).
<DaleB> I have done unique intros...but not very often
<MMissary2in1> I've been told that if the intro is longer than 15 seconds
the song will fail. Any thoughts on that one?
<Liane> unique.... do you mean something that is not repeated in the
rest of the song?
<songwriting> Yes, Usually.
<Liane> wow
<songwriting> Very few songs have a real Intro
<MMissary2in1> seems to me anything longer than 8 measures for an intro
would be too long anyway.
<songwriting> I agree
<Liane> I barely have any at all
<Liane> something I need to work on
<songwriting> That is OK
<Liane> same with tags
<Liane> I pretty much just jump in and out of my songs lol
<songwriting> I never use an intro.
<lilangel> OK
<lilangel> my question is.....
<lilangel> who are you?
<DaleB> LOL
<lilangel> LOL
<Liane> lol George we forgot to have you introduce yourself first!
<lilangel> don't mean to be rude but
<lilangel> WHO ARE YOU?
<songwriting> Ok
<songwriting> I am the publisher of "Songwriting, the Journal"..
<songwriting> 25 years of studying the song under my belt.
<lilangel> uh huh....and that is....what?
<songwriting> It has been a life long passion of mine
<Liane> how did you start your songwriting group
<lilangel> ok so he is 26
<lilangel> lol
<Liane> lol
<lilangel> kidding
<songwriting> 37
<Liane> you do workshops right?
<songwriting> yes
<songwriting> july
<songwriting> is the next one
<DaleB> (lilangel): are you satisfied now?
<Liane> lol
<DaleB> ;-)
<lilangel> not really
<lilangel> i still don't know who he is
<Liane> George Martinez
<lilangel> tell us about yourself George
<lilangel> please
<songwriting> 37 years old
<Liane> I think she is looking for certified or licensed or PH D or
something
<songwriting> Music major, two years.
<DaleB> what school?
<songwriting> conferences, books, and a whole lot of studying
<Liane> Angel subscribe to his journal... he knows what he's talking
about
<songwriting> Central AZ College
<songwriting> Dr James H Johnson.
<songwriting> He is the coolest.
<Liane> lol Jim... another you!
<songwriting> He taught me Music theory.
<songwriting> I have been teaching 5 years.
<songwriting> Wrote a book
<songwriting> Re writing it now.
<songwriting> developed the CSR Method to songwriting
<lilangel> you still have 2 more rewrites...that is just from
experiance...LOL
<songwriting> Working on other resources now.
<Liane> Someone is asking about industry proof... don't understand
the question
<songwriting> Yes I agree about the re-writes.
<DaleB> possibly meaning published?
<songwriting> Not published.
<lilangel> don't understand what question Liane?
<Liane> the question someone is asking privately.. they want to know
about any industry proof
<DaleB> (lilangel): any other questions?
<lilangel> shoot books are like songs, you write them they sit in the
closet for a year then you re-write and few times then you finally call someone
when you can't do any more on it LOL
<Liane> published material for credibility they just clarified
<songwriting> The Journal
<songwriting> Have you read it?
<lilangel> yeah that is fine Dale, thanks
<Liane> of course!
<MMissary2in1> The "Holy Grail" question from someone?
<Liane> the Journal
<Liane> I was thinking like published songs or books and forgot about
the Journal
<DaleB> maybe we need to go back to Jim too....
<Liane> Angel you really need to read the Journal
<DaleB> question Jim?
<Liane> btw George.. this is James Johnson
<Liane> looks like he is away at the moment though
<songwriting> COOL!!!
<Jim> I was just wondering if this James H. Johnson was elderly.
<songwriting> Call me!
<songwriting> Yes.
<Jim> If he could have been the same guy who recorded player-piano
rolls at one time.
<songwriting> He called himself Dr. Jazz
<songwriting> Don't think so.
<Jim> Too much of a coincidence, I suppose, but I had to ask. :-)
<songwriting> Thanks.
<JakeTheSpud> great! the gag's off
<Liane> lol
<DaleB> question?
<JakeTheSpud> So where are you located now, George?
<Liane> any questions on the 12 parts?
<songwriting> Mesa AZ
<JakeTheSpud> How do I get "The Journal?"
<songwriting> Should I send info about the Journal to the list?
<songwriting> It may be easiest.
<JakeTheSpud> I dunno... Admins?
<Liane> Marty?
<DaleB> yeah..do that George
<songwriting> Thanks
<JakeTheSpud> Is it a newsletter, magazine, or online publication?
<songwriting> Cross between newsletter and a magazine.
<Liane> admins conferring.. one moment please
<songwriting> Lots of teaching.
<MMissary2in1> yes!
<Liane> ok it's a yes George
<JakeTheSpud> I noticed you interviewed Jill Putzier in a recent issue.
How much did you know of her work before you asked her?
<songwriting> One song.
<songwriting> I noticed her talent
<songwriting> Unique.
<songwriting> Different
<songwriting> Good writing
<DaleB> Think Different!
<songwriting> Yea.
<songwriting> That's the start.
<JakeTheSpud> Any comments you can give us in terms of what to look
for when we write to be different, unique, and good?
<DaleB> ok..I think we need to pass the baton soon..others have been
waiting
<songwriting> Tell a reall story.
<songwriting> It has to be very detailed.
<songwriting> That makes it unique.
<songwriting> Use new words that aren't worn out.
<DaleB> ok Brad
<Sno--man> OK take a sec to set up questoin...
<Sno--man> About the bridge...
<Sno--man> I understand the bridge to lyrically be different
as such as more detail and perhaps a different perspective or person...
<songwriting> Yes but not person
<Sno--man> you mentioned that musically it should be not same but close?
What about making it much different to stand out and make point of theme
more enhanced?
<songwriting> That would work....
<songwriting> But I would suggest doing that in the chorus
<songwriting> The chorus is the heart of the song
<Sno--man> OK I did that with one nust recently and it seemed to realy
hit the point of the song hard
<songwriting> Great
<Sno--man> I slowed the tempo down almost half and musically much different
beat but seemed to work
<songwriting> The bridge should support the chours
<songwriting> It it works, that's what's important
<Sno--man> yes in more detail or different perspective but not
person as you said my goof there
<songwriting> There are not solid unbreakable rules in songwriting.
<DaleB> (Sno--man): any other questions?
<songwriting> Very good.
<Sno--man> :) can I ask another quick one?
<songwriting> Yes
<Sno--man> On the list someone posted a song for critique that had
a verse/chorus combo thing happening and a bridge. I've not heard of that
before.. do you know of this?
<Liane> like a refrain?
<Sno--man> seemed to not have a separate verse or chorus
<songwriting> Let me explain.
<Sno--man> No theylisted it as a verse and chorus combo thign I believe
confused me lol
<songwriting> Verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge
<Liane> Tony says "Brad's talking about Kathy Del Russo's song that
had a verse, but the hook was at the end, so she and Al called it a Verse/Chorus"
<songwriting> Did I misunderstand?
<Sno--man> I understand and that's my point they had verse/chorus
all in one then bridge.. don't understand
<Sno--man> Yeah that's the one Tony
<songwriting> I would need to look at it.
<Liane> we can unmoderate now
* Sno--man passed the chips around
<songwriting> My theory is if it sounds good, and it works, it OK.
<DaleB> woohoo!
<Liane> wouldn't that be a refrain?
<JakeTheSpud> (Sno--man): do you think Kathy meant that the PRAISE
CHORUS was the verse section, that could be repeated over and over and over
again, and the bridge was just a second part
<JakeTheSpud> refrain?
<JakeTheSpud> yeah... refrain
<Liane> a refrain is at the end of a verse... it is repeated at the
end of each verse.. like a chorus but not a chorus
<songwriting> good job
<JakeTheSpud> "...Almost like bein' in love..."
<Liane> (I read George's Journal which explains the difference between
the chorus and a refrain)
<JakeTheSpud> "... on the sunny side of the street..."
<JakeTheSpud> You don't get many songs like that anymore
<songwriting> not a lot
<Sno--man> Yeah Tony I think so I'd like to hear how they
did it
<JakeTheSpud> "... spring can really hang you up the most..."
<Liane> lots of hymns had them
<Sno--man> Exactly Tony
<Rhema_in_the_house> Ok....we can all talk now?
<Sno--man> ABAB type? not verse chourus but I think ABAB they call
it
<Liane> yeah
<songwriting> yes they do
<Rhema_in_the_house> Sorry, i couldn't keep up so i couldn't really
ask anything..
<JakeTheSpud> but then I learned in most of these traditional songs,
the intro is called the verse, which is done kind of out of time, then the
refrain is the whole rest of the song
<Rhema_in_the_house> I missed pretty much everything..
<Sno--man> Guess it depends on how you chop it up lol
<Liane> whoa that is different Tony!
<JakeTheSpud> (Rhema_in_the_house): Liane's got it logged, so if you
were *distracted* you can pick up later ;-)
<Liane> don't Jazz musicians have their own vocabulary for everything?
<Rhema_in_the_house> hehe...;-)
<Liane> Rhema was in the house but the light wasn't on
<Liane> (sorry... just kidding)
<Sno--man> lol
<JakeTheSpud> (Liane): not really, most old musical showtunes had that
format... it's kind of like the classical "aria... recitative..." format
(right Dale?
<Rhema_in_the_house> Well, that's relative....
<Sno--man> Tough to keep up at times
<JakeTheSpud> (Rhema_in_the_house): or soon-to-be?
<DaleB> (JakeTheSpud): sort of
<Rhema_in_the_house> LOL!!!!!! ROTFLLL!!!!
<songwriting> Thanks folks. It was a blast.
<Sno--man> George... what book do you recmmend to read in studying
writing?
<songwriting> as many as you can find
<JakeTheSpud> (songwriting): thanks George, I had fun too.
<Rhema_in_the_house> hehe.....for once dale is in the dark...
<Liane> Thanks for talking to us George and sharing all this interesting
stuff about songs with us tonight!
<songwriting> I read them all
<Sno--man> Any in particular that stands out a s good?
<Rhema_in_the_house> hehe....maybe i'll shed some light...I dunno...
<songwriting> Anything from Sheila Davis.
<Liane> let it shine let it shine let it shine
<Sno--man> Ah yes I read Craft of lyric writing good stuff
<DaleB> brb
<Liane> Dave Byers loves that book
<Sno--man> It is good
<songwriting> Look in your local book store.
<Rhema_in_the_house> I was talking to a boy.
<JakeTheSpud> (Sno--man): anything by Pat Pattison... most of them
are workbooks
<songwriting> mine will be out by summer.
<songwriting> self published.
<JakeTheSpud> (Rhema_in_the_house): you mean that really cute one?
<Rhema_in_the_house> Er....yeah...
<Liane> workbooks sound good
<Liane> you'll have to let us know as soon as it is out
<songwriting> I promise
<songwriting> Good Night and God Bless. Thank you all. You're great.
<Liane> Bye for now songwriting ! God bless!
<DaleB> Bye George
<JakeTheSpud> bye George
*** songwriting has left #Christian-Songwriters
<Sno--man> See you George
Session Close: Tue Mar 07 23:26:40 2000