Topic: Christian Country Songwriting Principles
Session Start: Tue Jun 01 21:21:30 1999
[TakeCourage] ok Marty.... you have any thoughts?
[Marty] Well, what makes a song a christian country song?
[TakeCourage] well one thing is it can't be "I lost this.. and I lost that"
lol
[Marty] Most country songs tell stories.
[Gracestone] Well here ya all are
[JasonM] Yup
[AXEMAN] where?
[TakeCourage] we have both Gracestone AND Graceful here today! awsome!!
[Gracestone] I been in the wrong room
[AXEMAN] who?
[Marty] Laughs Out Loud Gracestone
[Gracestone] I did a _ instead of an -
[TakeCourage] OK... now.. what KIND of stories would CHRISTIAN Country songs tell then?
[ROB] it took me three weeks to figure out how to get here
[TakeCourage] Rob.. should have emailed someone sooner
[Marty] things lost and found, discovery, journeys.
[Gracestone] Stories I think
[TakeCourage] frustrations?
[ROB] like to learn on my own I quit the list God made me come back
[TakeCourage] parables???
[JasonM] (TakeCourage): Well, I'm writing a Christian country song about
a carpenter born to a preacher in Tennessee
[Marty] mini parables, yes.
[AXEMAN] when you find God you loose lots of stuff
[JasonM] Country songs often deal with family, patriotism, etc.
[duster] I don't listen to Christian country, even though I grew up with
country music
[TakeCourage] well.. I'm not a country fan (sorry "y'all") :) so I don't
know any lyrics we could look at as an example to find good songwriting
principles for this genre
[Gracestone] Most of the country music I knew was sad
[Gracestone] I started hearing some other stuff later
[Marty] Denver's songs were pretty good country/folk.
[TakeCourage] can country music sound happy and still be country music
then????
[Marty] yes.
[TakeCourage] I did like Denver's music
[duster] honestly, I find Christian country music kind of dorky...
[AXEMAN] It seems to me that a lot of CCM music has country sounds and flavors
in it
[Gracestone] I think so, especially after HEE Haw!
[duster] it is moving that way
[JasonM] (duster): Dorky? How so?
[TakeCourage] what about that song "The Walk" by Steven Curtis Chapman...
is it just me.. or does that song seem rather country? (although I happen
to love it.. kind of a crossover song)
[duster] look at Paul Overstreet...he gets commercial airtime because his
music is good, with a good message
[Marty] Country seems to blend well in that sense with Christian music in
that story telling and gospel songs seem to fit well.
[duster] I like Paul Overstreet
[ROB] I wrote a country song about our pet back on the farm he's a 2000 lb
bull
[AXEMAN] I think that is because a lot of CCM comes out of Nashville
[duster] right, axeman, I think you hit the nail on the head there
[TakeCourage] that makes sense
[Gracestone] Country is definitely not my best subject but I just listened
to a bunch of Johny Cash and I have to tell ya he is quite a lyricist
[TakeCourage] Jim I understand you! :)
[TakeCourage] so what makes a country song good then?
[AXEMAN] It also seems to me that what was southern rock when I was young
is country now
[TakeCourage] southern rock?
[TakeCourage] don't know if I've heard that term before?
[TakeCourage] I've heard of southern gospel
[Gracestone] If you've never heard his "Man in Black" song you missed a special
moment
[TakeCourage] but not southern rock
[Marty] very true.
[ROB] it has to be real like any good song
[Gracestone] Lynard Skinard and stuff like that fit the southern rock vein
[AXEMAN] that's one
[TakeCourage] wasn't familiar with him either
[TakeCourage] was too busy listening to Petra
[duster] southern rock today means Lynrd Skynrd, Creedence Clearwater Revival,
etc.
[JasonM] What were the Eagles considered?
[AXEMAN] brain fadeeeeeee
[Gracestone] Yeah, I played that stuff in High School bands
[Marty] Country, I thought.
[duster] southern rock
[TakeCourage] I thought the Eagles were just plain rock?
[Gracestone] Eagles were in that vein
[duster] actually a mix of both
[AXEMAN] I think before Joe Walsh joined them the were definatly
[AXEMAN] Joe changed the group dramaitcally
[Gracestone] So how does this influence a Christian song in the same vein?
[TakeCourage] ok back to the topic... what do you think are good songwriting principles for christian country songs??
[duster] most country songs have a good lyrical hook...
[TakeCourage] ok...
[Marty] they always rhyme.:-)
[TakeCourage] yeah don't country songs rhyme even more than most other
songs?
[Amelia] Easy to yodle with? :P
[AXEMAN] (Amelia): YOU can call me ken
[Gracestone] There's a tendency toward down home stuff
[Marty] Laughs Out Loud Amelia
[JasonM] Rhyme is seen more in country, true
[TakeCourage] more perfect rhymes than near rhymes too right??
[duster] I'd say so,
[Amelia] Thanks KEN
[AXEMAN] the rest of you can call me Mr. Axe
[Amelia] I think most Christian Country songs are basic in chord structure
[AXEMAN] or Sir
[Guest43639] sorry it's me rob (RGraceful) I got bumped
* Amelia feels so special
[Marty] Simple chords for the most part.
[TakeCourage] is anyone familar enough with any christian country songs to actually type out the lyrics of one for us here?
[AXEMAN] or great and awesome....
[AXEMAN] no
[Marty] no
[Gracestone] A country worship tumne is God is Good all the time
[AXEMAN] I thinks you better all call me ken
* Amelia is scanning her CD wall
* Amelia has some
[Amelia] One min
[TakeCourage] ok
[TakeCourage] great
[Lyndra] hooray! country music!
[Gracestone] God is good
[JasonM] A Christian country chorus:
[JasonM] Love ain't a one night stand
[JasonM] It's showin' that you care day by day
[JasonM] It's lookin' after every need
[JasonM] And helpin' come what may
[JasonM] Love ain't a one night stand
[Gracestone] All the time
[Gracestone] He put a song of praise
[Gracestone] In this heart of mine
[Gracestone] God is good
[Gracestone] God is good
[Gracestone] All the time
[Guest43639] i have minsouth
[Marty] why Ken, so questions can be axed of you?:-)
* Amelia only has pseudo-christian country
[Marty] I don't listen to much country.
[JasonM] (Amelia): As in pseudo-Christian or pseudo country? ;-)
[Amelia] Jason, yes ;)
[AXEMAN] (Marty): lol
[JasonM] (Amelia): lol!
[Amelia] Would SCC's Great Adventure Suffice?
[Lyndra] if it's Deliriou5 lyrics, it's Fair Use to use them in the chat
to discuss, but *since the critical event is over* when you post the chat
later, it might be an infringement.
[TakeCourage] lets look at the chorus Jason typed up
[duster] it was a crossover of styles
[Gracestone] (takecourage) Did you see the chorus to the country worship
tune I put up or were you thinking more country CCM
[JasonM] (Angie): Hi
[Angie] Hi everyone.
[Angie] Forgot about chat 'til just now.
[duster] hi angie
[TakeCourage] (Jim): country worship? never heard of such a thing !!
[TakeCourage] I thought that was a country ccm.. I suppose country ccm is
what we are discussing
[Gracestone] I think that was a Paul Overstreet tune
[Marty] Will the Circle Be Unbroken is a good Country piece.
[Angie] What's the topic?
[TakeCourage] (Marty): OH I know that song!!!!
[TakeCourage] my uncle likes to sing it
[JasonM] (Angie): Christian country
[Angie] I thought the USA was a Christian country? LOL
[Amelia] Nope
[Gracestone] Who's the guy who plays the violin? He accepted the Lord and
now all his songs are Christian. He wrote a tune called " I pick bad two
out of three. Definitely country
[Lyndra] (Angie): um, no.
[Amelia] Gra: Charile Daniels
[Amelia] Gra: Charlie Daniels
[Gracestone] Charlie Daniels, that's it
[duster] that Mark Woods, maybe?
[duster] of 'the Devil Came Down to Georgia" w/ the Charlie Daniels Band?
[Lyndra] Are there any serious music nerds here tonight? Like musicologists
or theorists with more than one degree therein? I need some library help.
[Gracestone] Yes although that was before he got saved
[Amelia] I know theory
[duster] mark woods is actually the violin player, Charlie Daniels has the
band
[Lyndra] The theology in The Devil Came Down To Georgia is a little
dubious.
[duster] no doubt
[duster] good story, no less
[Amelia] AXE: Test
[TakeCourage] Ok.. in what ways would songwriting principles differ for christian country than other types of christian music??
[Marty] melody is memorable.
[Marty] rhyming
[Amelia] I think country has a more definate storytelling side than other
genres
[Gracestone] The story of Best two out of three is about choices and the
bad habit he has of choosing wrong.
[TakeCourage] does memorable mean simpler?
[Marty] story is strong
[Guest43639] Simple is better in country
[Lyndra] I'm a librarian, and what I need is a "core list" of nerd books
that no music library should be without. I don't really want suggestions
of individual nerd books so much as titles of the lists themselves, so I
can borrow and use them.
[JasonM] Cliches are more accepted in country
[duster] cliches are central to country
[Marty] yes, cliches are predominant in country.
[Gracestone] I hate to say it but the twang is very important too and I don't
mean that just to be funny
[Amelia] Once again, yodeling is a must...so I would say easy to yodle words
* Rhema says Lift Your Hands and Praise the Lord !! \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/ \0/
[TakeCourage] so we have...tell a story/ memorable melody / perfect rhyming
/ lots of rhyming / cliches are ok
[Marty] Laughs Out Loud Jim, does that mean we can yodel too?:-)
[TakeCourage] I prefer yodeling over twang myself
[duster] it helps if you are from an area where there is a country-type
accent
[Gracestone] My Dad said I'd never be a country singer cause I didn't sing
right
[TakeCourage] you mean a southern draaaaawwwl
[Marty] you mean drawl?
[Amelia] Shania Twang yodels...
[Lyndra] Wynonna Judd doesn't have much twang.
[Amelia] LOL
[duster] not a drawl necessarily
[Amelia] Lyndra: Yes she does
[duster] just can't have much vibrato
[Gracestone] I couldn't figure out what he meant then one day it dawned on
me that the twang was missing
[TakeCourage] I don't like to use vibrato anyway
[Marty] they do drewl their words from time to time.:-)
[TakeCourage] but I'm no country singer
[duster] i hate vibrato
[Amelia] Overall, the songs are quite repetitive
[TakeCourage] me too duster
[Amelia] I run a country Karoke show, and there is mostly twang
[TakeCourage] yes come to think of it.. they are repetitive
[duster] when you look at secular country music there are definitely different
genres
[TakeCourage] If I hear a country type of song without the twang.... and
just a voice and a guitar like John Denver.. or Steven Curtis Chapman and
his song 'The Walk'.. I like it
[Lyndra] horrors! country karaoke!
[TakeCourage] but do those things make it no longer country?
[Marty] Laughs Out Loud
[Amelia] :p
[AXEMAN] (Marty): drewl that's a good one lol
[Gracestone] My Dad would think so
[duster] Dwight Yoakam and BR59 have a rockabilly style that can border on
swing
[TakeCourage] what is it then? folk music?
[Gracestone] He's into old Hank Snow type stuff
[Amelia] Tak: No....but they're definately a way to tell
[Lyndra] one of my favorite books is "Night Train to Memphis" by Elizabeth
Peters, in which a Bavarian does a number of horrible things to classic country
music.
[duster] while Travis Tritt and Wade Hayes border on rock
[TakeCourage] (Amelia): what's that?
[duster] I think in Christian country you find just one genre, and that is
what Paul Overstreet does
[Amelia] Tak: There are just some tell-tale signs of what type of music it
is
[Rhema] Hmm...gotta have a fiddle, steele guitar, and banjo....
[Marty] Randy Travis gets on my nerves.
[duster] I don't know what I would call that
[Guest43639] country is a state of mind
[TakeCourage] steele guitar and twang I can't stand
* Amelia plays a mean fiddle
[AXEMAN] the Dead used all that stuff were they country?
[duster] I really like Randy Travis, but I don not like Hank or Hank, Jr...or
any of that style
[Marty] more a state of confusion?:-)
[TakeCourage] harmonica is ok.. fiddle is great.. banjo ok.. but that's it
[TakeCourage] well the fiddle I'm thinking of is more Celtic than country
I think
[Rhema] Well, these are things that consist of Country music...
[TakeCourage] the Rankin family.. .do they use fiddles?
[Gracestone] I would say that without the twang, the stuff they call new
country is old rock and roll, (sorry to come back to that)
[Amelia] 4 example: Garth Brooks borders on pop, but his songs ALL sound
country
[Marty] true.
[Rhema] Er....who was mentioning vibrato???
[Amelia] Country singers also use a different vocal technic than other
singers
[AXEMAN] (Gracestone): that is the history of country
[TakeCourage] I dont' know Jim.. dont' think it's quite old rock n roll
[duster] Bluegrass and gospel, are definite separate genres for me
[Rhema] Someone just told me you find a good atg line and build around
it...
[duster] I had mentioned vibrato earlier
[Lyndra] I wish Dale were here, just so I could hear him eek about this topic.
He hates country! A lot!
[Rhema] Anybody know what an tag line is???
[Gracestone] Not exactly but much of it is close or maybe closer to southern
rock which was mentioned earlier
[TakeCourage] Lyndra I don't like country much either
[JasonM] For list of Christian country singers and genres:
http://www.interlink-cafe.com/dano/nsctry.htm
[AXEMAN] the rock of the 50's became the country of the 70's, and the rock
of the 70's is becoming the country of the 90's
[Rhema] WEll, I think you do have to have a decent vibrato to pull off some
of the little twirls and stuff...
[TakeCourage] certain types I can barely stand at all and other types are
at least barable and other types I can even enjoy
[Amelia] some people can and never will have a vibrato
[TakeCourage] Ken I can't think that way at all!!!
[duster] regardless, I do not like vibrato...it grates on me
[Marty] that's when you need to use echo.:-)
[Marty] and speed the setting on it.
[Amelia] Duster: All vibratos?
[Gracestone] Isn't a vibrato a rude kid who's dancing cause his toe hurts?
[TakeCourage] as much as I like dc Talk (a HUGE favourite of mine).. I don't
like it when Kevin Smith goes overboard with his vibrato
[duster] pretty much
[Amelia] Kevin's vibrato isn't real...it's forced
[Gracestone] (sorry, my bad humour emerges)
[Guest43639] (take courage) can I post part of a christian country crossover
I wrote
[Amelia] Hmm, how many of you are really singers (smirk)
[TakeCourage] go ahead
[duster] not all writes and musicians are singers...
[lavender2] Hi everyone
[TakeCourage] I'm a non-vibrato singer
[Gracestone] Yo to light purple
[Amelia] I know that :P
[TakeCourage] Hi Tony
[JakeTheSpud] Sorry I'm late
[AXEMAN] I am the very model of a modern Major general
[duster] you need to remember that country music is not just music..it defines
a style of life
* Amelia laughs at Ken
[Amelia] oops I am laughing about you
[Gracestone] Oh no, the spirit of goofiness lives
[duster] it comes from certain areas of the country and Canada
[TakeCourage] (RGraceful): Go ahead and post the portion of your country
song
[AXEMAN] I've invormation vegitable animal and mineral
[Rgraceful] Sorry it won't let me copy
[Gracestone] Is that Danny Kay, Axeman?
[duster] I do not think it is a coincidence that we have few country singers
from the upper east coast or California, etc
* Amelia grabs a bag of sugar free Oreo's (the diabetic version yeah right)
[JasonM] (duster): Can Arizonans write country? ;-)
[cypriana] hello
[Lyndra] (AXEMAN): do you watch the Animaniacs? "I am the very model of a
cartoon individual...."
[duster] sure jason
[AXEMAN] it's from the Pirates of pinsants(SP.) I can do rea opera too
[Gracestone] Oh yeah I remember
[Amelia] :)
[AXEMAN] but I can't speel in inglish let alone german
[AXEMAN] rea = real
[Amelia] Same thing here
[JasonM] (duster): Even urban Arizonans?
[Gracestone] But Danny Kay used to do all those toungue in cheek word twisters
too
[Marty] I wonder why?
[Lyndra] (AXEMAN): penzance, in the dead Cornish language. and my boss pretends
to believe G&S are real music.
[duster] don't know Jason...
[Amelia] nevermind
[AXEMAN] (Lyndra): thanks
[Amelia] I like G&S The Gondoliers rocks
[Lyndra] I should introduce my boss to you guys. Except that at best he's
agnostic.
[TakeCourage] anymore comments on christian country music before changing the topic to 'fellowship'?
[JasonM] (duster): I hope so, cause I am and I don't even own cowboy boots.
;-)
[Lyndra] My boss was Pish-Tush in the Mikado a good while back.
[duster] jason. come on up to wyoming and get some inspiration...I even have
an extra pair of boots, size 11
[AXEMAN] agnostic = confused = in denile
[Gracestone] I'm not particularly a country music fan but there is definitely
a need to reach folks who listen to that style. Is there no one who excels
in this group at that genre of music?
[JasonM] Pat James does
[AXEMAN] I did parts of the Mikado in college.....
[AXEMAN] very true, so they do
[TakeCourage] you rhymed!!
[Lyndra] ooooooooooo!
[AXEMAN] that was all i got to sing
[Amelia] I reach those people through mainstream country with my Christian
Lifestyle
[Gracestone] Is Pat not here?
[TakeCourage] don't think so
[duster] here is maybe the crux of christian country music...
[Gracestone] Bummer, my knowledge of it is only because of those who are
close to me and into it.
[AXEMAN] liane if you don't think that Pat is not here then you think he
is here
[duster] country music needs to be light and fun for the most part...it is
not always easy to relate christian music into that style
[TakeCourage] oh yeah
[TakeCourage] smarty pants!
[TakeCourage] :)
[Gracestone] Axeman sharpens his wit
[duster] And I don't think anyone except Paul Overstreet has had success
doing it...
[JasonM] Pat has not entered the building. ;-)
[AXEMAN] I'm killing me
[Marty] she confuses easy Ken, careful!:-)
[Lyndra] Charlie Peacock was very successful.
[TakeCourage] sharp as an Axe can be
[AXEMAN] (TakeCourage): lol
[duster] charlie peacock is a good jazz player and writer, not very good
at country
[JasonM] (duster): What about country ballads though? They're not light and
fun
[Gracestone] Charlie Peacock and country don't mix from what I know
[duster] Phil Keaggy has had some close ones
[TakeCourage] Phil Keaggy??
[Amelia] I think country is also much more life-relative
[duster] ballads are another genre of courntymusic and that is true
[AXEMAN] Keaggy country?
[Lyndra] but he was popular, which is useful.
[TakeCourage] that's true about Charlie Peacock.. can't imagine him and
country
[Gracestone] Yeah but he survived the accidents and got away with his life
[duster] yep, the Wind in the Wheat album from late 80s
[AXEMAN] I don't think that album was country at all
[JasonM] Country deals quite often with down home values
[Gracestone] Me either
[duster] not with all his fingers though!
[Lyndra] Yes, country isn't all alcohol and adultery!
[Gracestone] I wrote a song once called Ciderman's place
[TakeCourage] One thing I'm learning tonight is that there are so many different
genres within the Country genre
[duster] his guitar style certainly was
[AXEMAN] I don't think wind and the wheat could be classified
[Gracestone] I think it was pretty country
[Lyndra] yes, probably half a dozen or so genres.
[duster] or more
[TakeCourage] wow
[AXEMAN] I'll have to go find that CD.... BRB
[duster] hi jim
[Jim] High their!
[TakeCourage] in rock music we don't call rock ballads a genre of rock do
we? (I never did.. was just a soft rock song to me)
[Jim] Big crowd tonight.
[JasonM] For list of Christian country genres and artists:
http://www.interlink
-cafe.com/dano/nsctry.htm
[Marty] all the country fans are in tonight.:-)
[Jim] Marty -- Then I must be in the wrong place!!
[Marty] LOL. JimJ
[Angie] Me too, Jim.
[Marty] I like more mellow yellow.:-)
[duster] I think what you will fond most often today is country music artists
that are christians instead of christian country artists...ans that is not
to say anything about priorities but just how it is
[TakeCourage] the fres is back
[Lyndra] lemme see: Grand Ole Opry style of long ago; Appalachian and Bluegrass;
Western/Cowboy, with subgenres including Tejano which is Western In Spanish;
Bayou sound (Louisiana, E Tx, Gulf Coast); Basic Commercial Country; Old
Time Gospel....
[Marty] gee Ken, two of you?:-)
[TakeCourage] the fresno kid lol
[AXE] couldn't find it...must be at church
[JasonM] (duster): And some just have good morals that write some moral
songs
[duster] look at Sawyer Brown, those guys (at least Miller that I know of)
are Christians and you can see it in how they act and the songs they do
sing...
[TakeCourage] Old Time Gospel is country????
[Marty] cound't stand himself?:-)
[Jim] Marty -- LOL!
[Jim] TakeC.... Yep.
[duster] and they reach a large audience
[duster] true Jason
[Marty] originally it was.
[TakeCourage] NEVER would have known!
[Lyndra] Yes! Or, related to it -- more like an ancestor than a descendant!
[JasonM] (Lyndra): What would you consider Jim Reeves?
[duster] old country, some gospel
[Lyndra] Superman's uncle?
[duster] old sorry
[Marty] or George?
[Jim] JasonM -- An unknown, in this household. ;-)
[JasonM] I'd consider him 6 feet under. ;-)
[duster] died in a plane crash right?
[JasonM] Yup
[Guest43639] Good night too deep for me
[AXEMAN] hey i just remembered.....Willie Nelson did a christian album
[Marty] For all the Girls I've Known?:-)
[Jim] LOL!
[Angie] I have a cousin in Willie Nelson's band.
[duster] let me guess, it nowhere contained the words, "rend unto Caesar
what is Caesar's...."
[Rhema] What did Willie Nelson say when he got hit by a car????
[Jim] duster -- Good guess. :-)
[AXEMAN] no really I remember seeing an ad for it on the tube
[Jim] Rhema -- What?
[Rhema] On the Road Again.....
[Jim] LOL!
[Angie] LOL
Session Close: Tue Jun 01 22:28:07 1999