Topic: Everyone Can Critique
Session Start: Tue Oct 03 21:23:44 2000
<Liane> lets name some things that should be critiqued.. things that
anyone could critique (for those who still think they can't)
<DaleB> uh...rhyme..syllable count?
<Liane> yes those are good ones..
<Liane> how about...
<Liane> checking to see if the lyrics make sense
<DaleB> oh yeah..things like verb tense
<Liane> even if you've never critique'd a song before... you can tell
if a lyric makes sense to you or not... anyone asking for a critique would
want to know if their song didn't make sense to anyone... this is important
information anyone can provide
<Liane> and the very act of critiquing someone's song makes you think
about the songwriting process and helps you to improve your own songwriting
<Liane> question: How do each of you go about critiquing a song? What do you look for?
<DaleB> actually..even though it is a forbidden topic...I think about
theological sense
<Liane> but that isn't critiquing the songwriting of the song
<DaleB> does it fit with what the Bible teaches
<Liane> that is critiquing the message that the person wanted to get
across to the listener... we want to critique how well a person gets their
message across
<DaleB> still something I think about though....part of my nature
<bullfrog> the way the song comes across-sometimes we say things that
don't really come across as we meant it
<Songwryt> So when you say you're critiquing the "songwriting"...we're
only talking technical here?
<Liane> How well did the person say what he really wanted to say...
that's what we should be critiquing
<Liane> so how do we go about that
<bullfrog> first, it would be helpfull if the writer plainly explained
what he wanted to say
<bullfrog> that would make it easier
<DaleB> yeah..how do you know for sure what they mean to say unless
they say it outright?
<Liane> good point Scott [bullfrog]... explaining upfront what he's
trying to say
<Songwryt> But sometimes the writer means for there to be a double
meaning in the song...
<DaleB> yeah..I've done that...and I waited to see what people would
say
<Liane> on the other hand... if he doesn't explain... and when we critique
we tell him what we *think* he was trying to say, that may be a more accurate
way of showing him if he got across to us
<bullfrog> good point
<Songwryt> I agree.
<DaleB> yeah..there needs to be some balance there
<Songwryt> Besides, if the writer has to explain what he was trying
to say, then he may as well blow off the song, don't you think?
<Liane> I think Scott meant that if a person explained what he wanted
to say... then we could read his lyrics and see if we think the song actually
says what he meant to say
<Songwryt> Oh...okay.
<Liane> but then I thought that the explanation might make our critique
of the song more biased because then we'd be *looking* for it [the meaning
that was explained]
<bullfrog> true
<bullfrog> or, to fight bias, ask for that information in the cirtique
<Liane> so maybe in critiquing songs on the CSO list from now one we
could make a point of starting off by telling the person what we think they
are trying to say
<Liane> if we think we see a double meaning we could tell them that
too... they may or may not have done that on purpose
<DaleB> that could be a good idea
<Liane> so far.. the only thing I know to look for is the syllable
count, check that the rhyme scheme is the same in each verse, check for
inconsistencies.. that each verse brings new info
<bullfrog> but, liane, many good songs don't necessarily add new
information with each verse
<bullfrog> only differently
<Liane> I've been told that some of my verses just say the same thing
using different words
<bullfrog> i don't see anything wrong with that-thats a form of expression
<Liane> another question...
<DaleB> brb
<Liane> What do ya do, when you read a lyric... and you just have nothing
to say about it?
<Liane> so many songs I just don't see anything to critique.. maybe
because I need to hear the music
<Songwryt> Not all songs are going to move us, Liane. Let somebody
else who is moved say what they think.
<DaleB> uh.....say nothing? ;-)
<Liane> :)
<Liane> that's another thing... yes we need more critiquing going on
in the list... but also we shouldn't feel that we should try and critique
every song submitted
<bullfrog> possibly just critique the rhyme scheme, or say good job
<Liane> so maybe encourage people to critique one or two songs a
week? Or critique 2 or 3 for every one they submit?
<Liane> I'd like to see more critiques for each song posted.... but
I'd like to see more in depth critiques
<Liane> not complicated critques... just more than a comment about
a word or something ( I do this all the time and I'd like to
give more in depth critiques myself)
<bullfrog> i think one problem is that people write in different styles,
and i find it difficult to critique annother style
<Liane> that's true! Maybe we should all state what the style
of the song is when submitting
<bullfrog> i tend to write from a contemporary folk style, where a
good portion of the list writes p&w
<Liane> (I gotta write this down to post to the list!! This is good
stuff)
<Liane> when I first joined the list most of the list was ccm
<bullfrog> i haven't really listened to a lot of p& w, so it's
tough for me to critique!
<bullfrog> but that isn't to say that it can't be done,
<bullfrog> although i don't get alot of critiques, some people, who
i know are from a different style
<bullfrog> have given me much help
<Liane> checking for things like if they wandered off their topic or
if they actually wrote what they wanted to say (by telling them what you
think they are trying to say) can be critique'd no matter how different the
style is from your own.
<DaleB> sorry...talking to my sister
<Liane> ok
<Liane> so.. if we are to critique the focus of a song... what exactly
does that mean?
<bullfrog> i don't understand the question
<Liane> the consistency of the story
<Liane> checking to see that a song didn't lose it's focus... does
that mean to check that the song doesn't wander off into another topic?
<DaleB> not trying to say EVERYTHING in one song
<Liane> Oh right! Focus only on one thing!
<DaleB> yes...that's what I think of
<Liane> so does the song focus on one main point... that's a good question
to ask then [when critiquing a song]
<Liane> you don't have to be a songwriter to read a lyric and check
to see that it focuses on one main point
<Liane> or to tell a songwriter what you think their point is... you
don't have to be able to write songs to do that either
<bullfrog> are there a great deal of members on the list who are not
songwriters?
<Liane> no... it's just that we have quite a few songwriters who say
that they don't critique.. because they aren't good enough at writing songs
they say
<bullfrog> ahh
<Liane> some people seem to think you have to practically be a pro
in order to critique a song
<Liane> but these types of opinions... such as checking for focus..
or telling the person what you think they are saying... are actually quite
valuable to a person seeking a critique
<Liane> and even a person who doesn't write songs at all can do those
things... that is my point... we can all critique
<bullfrog> of course
<Liane> we don't have to try to critique every song that gets posted...
but what I am seeing is that not enough people are critiquing
<Liane> we don't have to get nit-picky either though
<bullfrog> i totaly agree, it's something that really frustrates me
<Liane> I think we need to say more... without going overboard
<Liane> for example we don't need to critique spelling... and grammar
depends on the style of the song
<Liane> anymore questions or comments on critiquing before we move
on to part 2 of this topic chat tonight?
<bullfrog> nope
<Liane> Dale are you back from the phone call? We need you for
this
<bullfrog> my golly what happened, when i joined the chat there were
9 people
<Liane> Scott do you have a song to type into the chat? I'd like
every one of us to critique it... I'll ask certain questions and we'll answer
them by looking over your song
<DaleB> oh..ok..I'm back
<DaleB> eating pizza, but back
<bullfrog> can do, just let me open ms word...
<Liane> ok great!
<Liane> the first thing we'll do is tell Scott what we think he's trying
to say
<bullfrog> do you want the whole thing, or bit by bit
<Liane> ummmm
<Liane> better do the whole thing... if we have to scroll up.. then
we do... but put a line of ---- before you start so we can find it easily
<bullfrog> ok ill post then, wait a few for y'all to read
<bullfrog> I don't have a concrete future
<bullfrog> I don't have a wealth to spend
<bullfrog> Of tomorrow I'm not real sure
<bullfrog> Don't really know the where or when
<bullfrog> What I do have is a promise
<bullfrog> What I do have is a friend
<bullfrog> Ignorance is sometimes bliss
<bullfrog> And I don't know the way,
<bullfrog> But I know the end
<bullfrog> Underneith this arrogance
<bullfrog> Was a broken man with fear
<bullfrog> Fears been gone ever sience
<bullfrog> My Lord stopped my every tear
<bullfrog> He been walking down these streets
<bullfrog> In the shadows in the light
<bullfrog> He's the one that you meet
<bullfrog> When you're crying
<bullfrog> In the ni
<bullfrog> (in the night)
<bullfrog> I'm bound to you
<bullfrog> I can't undo
<bullfrog> And I don't want to
<bullfrog> Be apart from you
<bullfrog> I can't escape
<bullfrog> From your grace
<bullfrog> I can't erase
<bullfrog> My place
<bullfrog> With you
<bullfrog> I can't undo
<bullfrog> And I don't want to
<bullfrog> Be apart from you
<bullfrog> I'm bound to you
<bullfrog> I've tried to run away
<bullfrog> Inside my darkest time
<bullfrog> But every time I fall astray
<bullfrog> You're there to catch me from behind
<bullfrog> I gave my heart to you
<bullfrog> With my eyes open welled with tears
<bullfrog> So all the hardship I go through
<bullfrog> You're right there with me
<bullfrog> Through the years
<bullfrog> I don't have all that I want
<bullfrog> But I have more than I need
<bullfrog> And I can say I know the difference
<bullfrog> Between my wealth and my greed
<bullfrog> Peace does not elude my problems
<bullfrog> Peace does not erase my pains
<bullfrog> Peace I knowing I have a friend
<bullfrog> Who makes his rainbo
<bullfrog> who makes his rainbows from my rain
<bullfrog> (chorus)
<bullfrog> im bound to you----im bound to you
<bullfrog> -----------------------------------------------------
<bullfrog> whew, that pasted wierd!
<DaleB> was that it?
<Liane> ok
<bullfrog> too short?
<DaleB> what's the style?
<Liane> the thing that comes out at me the most is His Faithfulness...
how much we can depend and rely on Him
<Liane> was that what you were trying to say?
<bullfrog> kind of,
<Liane> that everything else might fail you
<bullfrog> it was more than that,
<Liane> but He never will.... that He's all that really matters
<bullfrog> even if we run away, he'll be right there
<bullfrog> think of the prodigal son parable
<Liane> and then how that causes you to never want to leave Him
<bullfrog> dale, style is fast tempo folky pop (i don't often write
pop), guitar +banjo rhythm, strong base lead
<Liane> thats what it seems to say to me
<DaleB> I can see that to some extent..but the beginning seems a bit
more general
<bullfrog> yah, that was pretty much it...
<Liane> ok so I got what you wanted me to get then?
<bullfrog> pretty much
<bullfrog> dale, do you think it's too general?
<Liane> that's great! Does that help you at all?
<DaleB> I thought it was at the beginning
<DaleB> it gets more specific in the second verse
<Liane> I think his beginning was like an introduction... and then
after he expounded on it
<bullfrog> dale, that's actually what i was trying to do, does it take
away from the message, i can see how it would..
<Liane> I see no problem with it like that
<DaleB> I'm sure..would probably have to hear it ;-)
<Liane> I think the first verse is easy to relate to since it is more
general... it catches the attention of the listener and makes them want to
know more
<Liane> Does that help you, knowing if your meaning gets through to
people the way you meant it to?
<bullfrog> liane, i would say helpfull in encouragement
<bullfrog> and that is allways very help full
<DaleB> just saying what I see
<bullfrog> no, dale, that's what i want to hear, what you see
<bullfrog> that's what helps me
<DaleB> that's what you're getting
<bullfrog> cool beans:)
<Liane> and THAT'S what I want more CSO members to realize!!!
<Liane> some people don't critique because they're "just saying what
they see"
<bullfrog> the listener only hears what they see too, thats the important
way to critique
<bullfrog> ill post the song on a website some time this week, and
ill post the lyrics for critique, so you can hear it dale
<Liane> ok ... Dale... what do you think of the focus in Scott's song?
<Liane> does he focus on one main point?
<Liane> I think he does... there may seem to be one or 2 mini points..
but they are helpful in getting the main point across
<Liane> I do see a potential problem
<bullfrog> whats that?
<Liane> the first verse is speaking about Him, He, etc.... the chorus
is speaking TO Him (You etc)... the last verse is you speaking... I etc
<bullfrog> ahh, a narative problem...i didn't catch that...
<bullfrog> not specific to this song, but do you think that can ever
work?
<Liane> and yet this is just the type of thing that you don't have
to even be able to write songs to catch
<Liane> maybe.. don't know.. all I know is that people have said in
critiques on the list that the whole song should be in one "person"
<Liane> but people also say.. learn the "rules"... and then break them
on purpose rather than by accident
<bullfrog> true
<Liane> so I suppose you could make it work... if you did it on purpose
for effect
<Liane> wb Dale
<bullfrog> ok, then i did it on purpose!!! lol
<Liane> ok lol
<DaleB> I was stuck on the third line, which sounded unnatural to me
<DaleB> but now I don't have the text in front of me anymore
<bullfrog> of tommorow im not real sure
<DaleB> yeah..that one
<bullfrog> see, that's one real problem with lyric critique
<Liane> uncertainty about the future
<bullfrog> when i wrote the words without music, the line was different,
<Liane> tomorrow I may die.. that kind of thing.. no one promised us
tomorrow
<DaleB> I know what he meant...I'm talking about the way he said it
<Liane> oh :)
<bullfrog> i had changed the line to fit the music
<DaleB> see..that's the problem :-)
<Liane> oooh like it should be "I'm not real sure of tomorrow" I didn't
even notice that it was backwards to the way we would normally speak it!
<Liane> not conversational
<bullfrog> when i post a song, i usually also post the music on my
site, and add a link, so people can also listen
<bullfrog> is the line confusing?
<DaleB> would "I'm not sure about tomorrow" work?
<Liane> people have said on the list that you can change the way a
line would normally be spoken.. in POETRY... but not in lyrics
<bullfrog> ahh..
<Liane> that sounds conversational Dale
<bullfrog> but not musical...
<Liane> lol
<DaleB> if you're going for pop I think the wording needs to be more
conversational
<bullfrog> see, i told you i don't write alot of pop!!
<Liane> a songwriter once said 'think wal-mart -- not hallmark' [Jason
Blume]
<DaleB> that's good Liane :-)
<Liane> poetry uses hallmark type lines.. but not lyrics
<bullfrog> but listen to caedmons call, or jars of clay...very poetic
<Liane> that's true
<Liane> you think they're doing it wrong? :) LOL
<bullfrog> if so i don't want to do it right
<Liane> LOL good one!
<DaleB> well..they can be kind of deep...but it's still a little more
natural though
<bullfrog> true
<Liane> well thank you Scott [bullfrog] for letting us critique your
song... it's going online on my chatlogs page
<bullfrog> cool wait umm....©2000 by scott fishel
Session Close: Tue Oct 03 22:34:55 2000