Session Start: Tue Jul 06 17:32:59 1999
Topic: Meter
<Marty> so we want to start the Meter discussion?
<Marty> Then let the games begin!!!:-)
<Kathy> sounds good!
<Marty> What is meter?
<Mr_cable_modem> I'm not sure I understand meter
<Marty> means the measured rhythm typical of a verse.
<Kathy> Is it like the measure
<Marty> division of music into measures or bars.
<CrystalRiver> I think I have the concept, just can't explain the tech.
<Mr_cable_modem> Are you talking rythmic Patterns?
<Marty> Not sure I follow it in the way the discussions were flowing
on the list.
<Marty> The COW jumped over the MOON. The CAT under the STAIRS. are
examples Liane left with me.
<Kathy> is it kind of like counting out the syllables
<CrystalRiver> Da da da da da da da da - da da da da da da
<Marty> I think we are talking about rhythmic patterns
<Marty> Are there meter patterns in lyrics? If so, how do you identify
them?
<Mr_cable_modem> I take it the CAPS are stressed syllables
<Marty> That was my impression - the caps mean stressed.
<CrystalRiver> Not really the syllables, but the timing of the words
<Marty> which seems awkward to me.
<Kathy> This would be helpful in critiqueing songs if I could get the
hang of it.
<Marty> any words of enlightenment? Or all we lost?:-)
<Mr_cable_modem> wellllll .... I'm not sure how this helps in critiquing
<Marty> In Poetry there are definite meters but lyrical meter follows
different directions.
<CrystalRiver> Think of this and listen to the timing...
<CrystalRiver> Mary had a little lamb... it's fleece was white as snow
<JasonM> I am LOST. In the FROST. ;-)
<CrystalRiver> on and on
<Mr_cable_modem> It seems to me that the stressed sylables are self
evident
<CrystalRiver> In this case it would be MARy HAD a LITtle LAMB
<Marty> Mary , Fleece, Snow are the only ones I think I see.
<CrystalRiver> it's FLEECE was WHITE as SNOW
<CrystalRiver> someone else complete it
<Mr_cable_modem> I see Mary, lamb fleece, snow
<CrystalRiver> else
<Marty> ok on white, but I don't follow your line as typed above.
<Marty> the mary line.
<CrystalRiver> EVeryWHERE that MARy WENT
<CrystalRiver> the LAMB was SURE to GO
<CrystalRiver> This pattern is pretty much every other syllable
<CrystalRiver> but not exactly
<CrystalRiver> EVERY pronounced as EVRY
<Marty> so rather than a speech pattern a beat pattern to the words
where the inflection is made on the downbeat?
<Kathy> HAPpy BIRTHday to YOU is this right?
<Mr_cable_modem> I see Pats rythm in the first line except maybe had
<CrystalRiver> Right
<CrystalRiver> MAR - y - HAD - a - LIT - tle - LAMB
<Marty> downbeat stress.
<Mr_cable_modem> well I guess that had is stressed
<Marty> even if you speed it up the stress appears to remain the same.
<JasonM> This is stressing me out ;-)
<InHisPresence> That would be a Trochaic meter
<Kathy> Nice stopping in for my first time, got to go to Bible
study. See ya on the list.
<Marty> choking meter?:-)
<CrystalRiver> Bye bye Kathy
<InHisPresence> bye
<Mr_cable_modem> OK but in Happy birtday it doesn't follow the downbeat
<CrystalRiver> it's kind of a weird beat
<Mr_cable_modem> (InHisPresence): huh?
<CrystalRiver> I would list it like this
<InHisPresence> it's a type of poetic meter
<Marty> no, it don't, the stress is on "to" as well as "you".
<CrystalRiver> happy BIRTHday to YOU
<Mr_cable_modem> ok it's a 3 feel so it does fall on the downbeat
<Marty> 3/4 time ok, but then the timing then is crucial to the meter?
<CrystalRiver> yes
<Mr_cable_modem> ok I'm starting to see how this will help but you
have to make sure that the reader knows what the time sig. is
<CrystalRiver> Remember that the number of syllables doesn't actually
count
<CrystalRiver> It's how you sing it
<CrystalRiver> some 4/4 lyrics can work 3/4, but some can't
<CrystalRiver> and vice/versa
<Marty> ok, this is making more sense as we go.:-0
<Mr_cable_modem> the caps fall on downbeats the rest you have to fit
in
<CrystalRiver> pretty much
<CrystalRiver> don't know if thats 100%, but its a good start
<Marty> so timing makes a big difference in how you view lyrical meter.
<Mr_cable_modem> Ok lets try 12 bar blues
<Marty> 12 bar blues?
<Mr_cable_modem> I'm going to KANsas city KANsas city here I COME
<Mr_cable_modem> I'm not sure it works well because of the sycopation
<Marty> wouldn't city be a downbeat?
<Marty> it does have syncopation that would make it difficult to nail
down.
<CrystalRiver> I don't think so
<InHisPresence> hi `roy
<`Roy> :)
<Mr_cable_modem> no city is 4 kan is 1 1/2
<`Roy> heya all
<CrystalRiver> The stress is on KAN which comes right after the down
beat
* `Roy apologises for bein late
<CrystalRiver> Hey Roy
<Mr_cable_modem> I don't think Come should be stressed either
<Mr_cable_modem> hi Roy
* `Roy was in stitches...err gettin stitches
<CrystalRiver> Come is on or close to 1
<Marty> I'm going to KANsas CIty?
<CrystalRiver> That's what's hard to learn about meter
<Mr_cable_modem> it falls before the beat but it feels like it should
be stressed
<CrystalRiver> It's how it feels more than how it is spelled out
* `Roy wavs to all and asks for everyone to be patient...he's down to one
hand for a couple days
<Marty> ok, city is a little before the downbeat.
<Mr_cable_modem> Jason thinks that one hand is more than you need
<`Roy> lol
<CrystalRiver> Finish the song
<Mr_cable_modem> (JasonM): sorry couldn't resist
<Marty> jason uses no hands. He got arrested for riding that bike of
his down the steep hill thinkin he was a plane.:-)
<`Roy> ahh
<CrystalRiver> they've got some CRAzy little women there and I'M gonna
get me ONE
<Mr_cable_modem> they got some CRAzy little WOmen there and I'M a gonna
Get me One
<Marty> got an easier piece? the syncopation makes it a little
difficult.:-)
<CrystalRiver> you're probably more right, I was sticking to downbeats
<JasonM> No-hands is back. Hi Roy
<Mr_cable_modem> GET is sycopated but it is on or just off the down
beat
<`Roy> howdy Jason
<Mr_cable_modem> If you could insert an up arrow it would be perfect
<Marty> is this one more of a 2/4 feel or very syncopated 4/4?
<JasonM> I have to leave for a Bible study soon.
<CrystalRiver> I would think 4/4
<Mr_cable_modem> very sycopated 4
<Mr_cable_modem> see ya Jason
* `Roy sits and reads quietly soaking up all this stuff....
<`Roy> ttfn Jason
<Marty> if you do 2 beats it works for me, 4 beats is a little
syncopated.:-)
<InHisPresence> bye jason
<Mr_cable_modem> they got some CRAzy little WOmen there and I"M a gonna
^Get me One
<Marty> bye Jason
<Mr_cable_modem> hi Jimmy
<JimmyB> Hi
<JasonM> "soon"... not yet ;-) <man, they're trying to get rid of
me>
<Marty> Laughs Out Loud
<InHisPresence> :)
<Marty> try another one?
<`Roy> oh man this is starting to sting
<`Roy> anyone got a cure for stitch itch?
<`Roy> the freezing is wearing off and I am going nuts
<Mr_cable_modem> Laughter is the best medicine
<`Roy> lol
<`Roy> yea i know, i am laffin like a fool right now coz if i don't
i'll cry
* Mr_cable_modem throws confetti on *`;.`~;`~`* ~`;.~`;.*`;`;. * *`;.`~;`~
`*~`;.~ ` ;.*`;.`~;`~ `* ~`;.~` ;. *;``* ~` *`;.`~;~`;.~ `;.*`;.`~;.* `;
.`~;`~ `*~`;.~ ; .*` ;.`~;`` *~` *`;. `~;`~ `*~ `;.` ;.`~;`` *~` *`;.`~ ;
`~`*~`;. ~`;.*` ;. `;`~`* ~`` ~;`~ *~`;.~ `;.*`;.`JasonM ~;` `*~` *`;.`~;`
~`*~`;.~`; .*`;.`~;`~`*~ *`;.`~;`~`* ~`;.~`;.*`;.`~; `~
<CrystalRiver> LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL just thought I'd help
<Marty> hit your big toe with a hammer, that'll take your mind off
the stitches for a while.:-)
* JasonM wades in confetti and looks for a machete
<Mr_cable_modem> Roy how many?
<Marty> So, one thing is to provide the time signature, the other is
to have your lyrics set up in 4 measure lines?:-)
<`Roy> 3 in my index, middle and ring finger of my left hand...two
in the pinky
<`Roy> 11 total
<CrystalRiver> Typing them out the way you would sing it will help
more than anything
<InHisPresence> yes
<`Roy> i got bit by an Ernie Ball
<CrystalRiver> Indication of measures would help
<Mr_cable_modem> A string?
<CrystalRiver> even the ones you don't sing in
<Marty> using what? / ?
<`Roy> yea
<InHisPresence> How About|
<CrystalRiver> using / or |
<Marty> or commas?
* `Roy went to an open blues jam session and popped a string
<Mr_cable_modem> HOW???? I've been stabbed real bad but never
cut
<Marty> I was cut once, only time in over 30 Years. usually get stabbed
but this one sliced me but I didn't need any stitches.
<CrystalRiver> a |MAzing |GRACE how |SWEET the |SOUND
<Marty> couldn't play for a while either.:-( may have been a
blessing for some.:-)
<JasonM> How do you get stabbed by a string?
<Marty> it strikes back at you like a bee sting.
<Marty> ok, so use the symbols between the major measures?
<JasonM> Sounds more like a cut
<CrystalRiver> what do you mean MAJOR?
<Marty> not when you have to extract the string from your hand manually
- you get to watch the faint of heart turn pale.:-)
<Marty> a is picup, so you start after that and last symbol is before
final measure?
<CrystalRiver> right
<CrystalRiver> last measure is really
<CrystalRiver> |SOUND that
<Marty> right.:-)
<CrystalRiver> You might even introduce the first line like so...
<Marty> I would think it would make it difficult to read the lyrics
somewhat with all these lines in between words.
<CrystalRiver> a |MA 2 3 |GRACE 2 3 |SWEET 2 3 |SOUND 2 3
<CrystalRiver> Then retype it along with the rest of the song
<Marty> confused on line above.
<CrystalRiver> Do the first verse to illustrate the timing, then leave
it out of the rest
<Marty> ok.
<CrystalRiver> Counting the beats 1 2 3 | 1 2 3
<InHisPresence> brb
<CrystalRiver> are we now thoroughly confused?
<CrystalRiver> It would be helpfull if everyone would add before their
lyrics, a sample of a wellknown song that is metered the same
<Marty> yes.:-)
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> howdy folks I will try to to hang but I got
a chat date in the singles 18-30
<InHisPresence> back
<Marty> I always like to hear the music with the lyrics. That makes
it easier.:-)
<CrystalRiver> That's the best, but not everyone can do it
<InHisPresence> me too marty
<Marty> except most can't do that.
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> What is going on with y'all
<Marty> talking about meter
<Jim> Hi y'all!
<Marty> Be Right Back cooler guy at the door.
[snipped some chit chat from while they waited for Marty to get back}
<Marty> Back
<Marty> topic finished?
<Jim> HilllcountryJesusfreak -- Yeah, that's harder on your hands than
playing keys. I used to play a little bass fiddle. Got some nasty blisters!
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> what is new with you Marty?
<Marty> well, cooler is now working.:-0
<Jim> WB, Marty. You mean there's a topic? ;-)
<Jim> Marty -- Still 120?
<Rhema> What was the topic??
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> my finger muscles did not like having to be
used
<Marty> well, there was when I left, on METER.:-)
<Marty> no, but still over 100.
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> sounds hot
<Jim> Marty -- We saw 106 again today. Official high in Phila. was
only 98 or so. Brrrrr!
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> sounds like DFW temps
<Rhema> What was the topic?????
<Marty> Topic was METER.:-)
<Jim> HilllcountryJesusfreak -- Yeah, I guess it does!
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> what about Meter?
<Marty> what is it, how do you use it? how do you identify it?
<Jim> Marty -- like 7/8, 5/4, and all those fun meters?
<Jim> :-)
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> 3/4 indecisve
<Marty> partly, but using lyrics alone to identify meter is hard.
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> as in I can't decide wether to be fast or
slow
<Marty> suggestion was to include the time sig with your lyrics for
critic.
<DaleB> I thought it meant lyrical meter...syllables and stress patterns
<Jim> Marty -- I agree. Time sig would be a big help.
<Marty> 9/4, 16/8, let's got for the hard stuff.:-)
<Rhema> Oh I really didn't understand all that stuff with meter...
<Rhema> Glad I missed the topic..<sorry>
<InHisPresence> :0
<Rhema> I just know i wouldn't get it...
<Jim> Rhema -- Do you read music?
<Marty> well, it was interesting and enlightning.:-)
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> trying to figure out meter on a long
<Rhema> The I would either get frustrated or bored with chat..
<DaleB> I didn't think it was supposed to be about musical meters...I
thought it was lyrics only
<InHisPresence> yes interesting
<Marty> log will be posted when Liane gets back.
<Rhema> Well, of course it's interesting if you understand it...
<Marty> lyrical meter was what we discussed, I thought.:-)
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> ten beets per line
<DaleB> then what does that have to do with time signatures?
<Rhema> But if it is the equivalent of sitting in on a third level
Spanish class and you've never taken the first level...well...very intimidating
and you really wouldn't understand it..:(
<DaleB> I missed the topic...so I don't know what was discussed
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> good ? DaleB please marty tell us
<Marty> only if they're red, green ones make you sour.:-)
<Jim> Marty -- Ah, well, I usually enjoyed English class, until they
got to poetry and lyrical meter, etc.
<Marty> time sigs help the reader of your lyrics follow the meter of
your lines.
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> I cram lyrics off a rhythm progression
<DaleB> not necessarily
<Marty> well, that is what pat was trying to explain.:-0
<DaleB> Bruce Johnson gave some examples
<DaleB> on the list..that is
<Marty> notes for odes? Jim? :-) missed that class.:-)
<DaleB> he was talking about common meter and he gave examples in 3/4
and 4/4 for the music
<Jim> Marty -- LOL!
<HilllcountryJesusfreak> easy to write with